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Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-G > 2009-07 > 1248217680


From: Ted Kandell <>
Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-G] Lebanese G2a3a-M406 Re:[Y-DNA_Haplogroup_G_Group] New results - G2a3a* M406+
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
References: <271055.97296.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <271055.97296.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


Hi Mitch,

We absolutely see close matches that are rather different at the first 12 STRs. What the FTDNA site says and what some people say that a non-match at 12 STRs cannot be related is complete nonsense. I know of several cases of cousins and even brothers who do not match exactly at 12 STRs.

In your case, your haplotype is somewhat different from both the other G2a3a's in the project and from the haplotypes from Lebanon listed in Prof. Pierre Zalloua's paper. This makes it even more important for you to get 67 STRs, since your haplotype is a somewhat earlier and more divergent form of G2a3a*. Your haplotype can help us figure out the origin of G2a3a, when it originated and where.

G2a3a* with an asterisk at the end is a placeholder which says "It's G2a3a-M406, but he haven't yet discovered any of the SNPs below that in this case". Evidence shows that there is one new SNP across the entire 23+ million usable base-pairs of the Y every 2-4 generations. Eventually, with Y full sequences, we'll have SNPs right down to the individual family level. Given that this is the case, it's rather interesting that we still have such designations as " G* " which means that in this particular case, we haven't yet discovered a single SNP that occurred within the past 20,000-15,000 years. Finding new SNPs will allow researchers in academic studies to inexpensively find the distribution of haplogroups even without adequate STR haplotype testing.

Every single Near Eastern haplotype is critical to G since this is where we find unusual clades such as yours and therefore the highest diversity of G. Much of what is now unknown about G will come from the unusual haplotypes of the Near East.


Thanks,

-ted





________________________________
From: Mitch <>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 6:48:33 AM
Subject: Re: Lebanese G2a3a-M406 Re: [Y-DNA_Haplogroup_G_Group] New results - G2a3a* M406+


Thank you for the info. Very interesting. The kit is #N55393. It also indicates L14- .

I have been reluctant to get the 67 marker test because I have no matches whatsoever. Instead I have gotten the deep clades tests. Am I wrong? Should I get the 67 marker test eventhough I have no matches on lesser tests?

What does the * mean in the G2a3a* ? Just a placeholder for future discoveries?

--- On Mon, 7/20/09, Ted Kandell <ted_kandell@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Ted Kandell <ted_kandell@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Lebanese G2a3a-M406 Re: [Y-DNA_Haplogroup_ G_Group] New results - G2a3a* M406+
To: Y-DNA_Haplogroup_ ups.com
Cc: "G List Rootsweb" <y-dna-haplogroup- g@rootsweb. com>, "Andre Nasr" <andreiinasr@ gmail.com>
Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 11:00 PM



Hi Mitch,

Which kit is this?

From what we know from the studies by Prof. Pierre Zalloua at the American University in Beirut, from the Cinnioglu study of Turkey, and studies of the Palestinians, Armenians and Iraqi Kurds, G2a3a-M406 is quite common in this region. In fact, if we subtract the obviously "South Arabian Arab " haplotypes in J1e with DYS388=17, G and G2a3a made up an even higher percentage of the haplotypes of Lebanon and Syria in the past.

The G haplotypes of Lebanon seem to be a mix of G1, G2c, G2* ("G2d"), G2a1a, G2a3a-M406, and perhaps even a G2a3b-P303 DYS388-13.

G2a3a1a-L14, a sub-haplogroup of M406, is quite common in the region. It is usually characterized by DYS390=21. Here are some haplotypes from Lebanon from the Zalloua paper that seem to be G2a3a1a:

98 G 15 13 12 17 21 10 11 14 15 10 11 Mt Leb Catholic Christian
107 G 16 12 12 16 21 10 11 14 16 10 11 Bekaa Shiite Muslim
109 G 15 12 12 16 21 10 11 13 16 10 11 South Shiite Muslim
114 G 15 12 12 17 21 11 11 15 16 10 13 South Shiite Muslim
120 G 16 12 12 16 21 10 10 14 16 10 11 North Sunni Muslim
121 G 15 12 12 16 21 10 11 15 16 10 11 Bekaa Sunni Muslim
123 G 15 12 12 16 21 11 11 14 15 10 13 Beirut Sunni Muslim
128 G 15 12 13 16 21 10 11 15 16 11 12 Beirut Sunni Muslim
132 G 14 12 12 17 21 11 11 14 16 10 12 Beirut Sunni Muslim
133 G 16 12 14 18 21 10 11 15 16 10 11 North Sunni Muslim

Interestingly, it seems that there are more Gs who are Muslim in Lebanon than Christians evenly divided between Sunni and Shia. We also know that quite a few Druze from the Galillee are G, and a good number of Palestinians, both Muslim and Christian.

Except for a single family of Sayyids from Yemen with a likely patrilineal ancestor from Anatolia, G2a3 isn't really found in Arabia. I would say that G as such isn't Arabian. However, G2a is not quite from the Caucasus either. G2 in general has its greatest diversity in Lebanon, and the locus of greatest diversity and not the highest frequency is likely to be the point of origin. Also, some rare sub-haplogroups of G2 are found in Lebanon and Syria, such as G2c and our G2* clade ("G2d").

I personally won't say that G2 in general originated with the Semitic agriculturalists of Lebanon, but by time of the Iron Age, I would say that G in general formed a portion of the Phoenician poipulation of Lebanon. It may be that the Phoenicians had a major role in the spread of G2a around the Mediterranean, given that places such as Sardinia which were colonized by the Phoenicians high percentages of G. Sardinia was rather isolated after the Phoenician colonization except for the Aragonese who arrived after 1300 in the north. G is found not just in the Aragonese part of the island, but all over, so it must predate the Aragonese conquest.

Ray can be more specific here about the distribution of M406. I woud also recommend that you test for 67 STRs so we can get a clear idea of which M406 clade you belong to, and what the tMRCA is with your European M406 matches.

-ted

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Mitch <. com>
To: Y-DNA_Haplogroup_ ups.com
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:00:22 PM
Subject: [Y-DNA_Haplogroup_ G_Group] New results - G2a3a* M406+

Hi all,

Some new results for me and some new questions that I hope you can help me answer. My new results indicate I am in group G2a3a* or M406+. Does this tell me anything new about my ancestry? The most recent male line of this ancestor is from Hasroun, Lebanon. He was a Maronite Christian from the mountainous area in the north. So far, not one match.

How common is this haplotype? Is it common in Lebanon? Among Maronites? Phoenician?

What does the little * at the end of the haplotype mean? Is there uncertainty? An unusual twist of some sort?

Thanks for your help as I try to unravel this mystery. I'm new at this so any help is appreciated.

Mitch

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