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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2012-03 > 1331499846

From: "Edward Andrews" <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] Re; 1840 & Methodista
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 21:04:06 -0000
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

Sorry, but there is a lot of what you have written which is simply not true.
What you have done has been to pick out the practices of a limited time, and
apply them as part of the universal experience of the community. They were
not. For example, by the time of the Disestablishment of the Church of
Ireland the penal laws were dead and gone. To this day you have
interchagablity between the Clergy of the four Episcopal Churches in the
British Isles.

The landowner's son as rector was because of a system known as patronage.
Throughout the British Isles the landowner had a tendency to be the person
who appoints the Established Church Minister. This was a running sore in
Scotland between 1712 and 1874.
The Established Church was however not really a way of making people
conform, but the idea of a Church and state completely intertwined, for
example to this day there are Bishops of the Church of England members of
the House of Lords. However at various times not to conform to religion
suggested that you were against the government. Remember in England in 1649
the Nonconformists could be seen as being responsible for the King having
his head cut off.

I would be very grateful for a reference to case of Presbyterian ministers
accused of fornication with their wives. I was not aware that Fornication
was a Criminal act, I would like a citation of the act. I think that you are
confusing Church discipline and the Civil courts. The main result of the
refusal to accept the validity of Presbyterian Marriages was the question of
the Succession of Land. This was important to the middle classes.

As far as restrictions of where Nonconformist meeting houses could be
built, I suspect that you are getting confused over the 5 mile act which was
part of the Clarendon Code. What was more effective about where Meeting
Houses could be built was the refusal of the Landowner to make a site
available. You see Shore Street Presbyterian Church in Donaghadee built
between high and low watermark.

As far as funerals are concerned, again I would like a reference. My
ancestors sleep peacefully in the Kells and Connor graveyard. People guarded
graveyards to prevent grave robbers, as the University Anatomy departments
expanded, or private Anatomy Classes as in the Notorious Dr Knox in

The whole essence of the protestant secession system was (and is) that the
eldest inherited, so of course the younger ones had to find fame and
fortune. What you seem to be forgetting is the effectively no one owned
their land, they were all tenants. However in Ulster they had Ulster Tennant
Right which meant that they could raise capital on the improvements which
they made.

The picture of children suffering under they tyranny of the eldest son
probably only reflects a rare example. Presbyterian younger children tended
to get an education and/or learn a trade, as did my wife's Father's family.

Where do you get the idea that Sisters could only marry if permitted? That
was not really part of the culture, remember that we were poor peasant
farmers who were going to seek our fortunes in a foreign land. A cursory
examination of Birth and Marriage records will show that we had a habit for
the first born to have a short gestation. Few had the right to be stuffy
unless there was the question of marrying out of the tribe, and it was not
until the Ne Temeri Decree in the early 20th Century that really became

Much of what you have written comes out of a rather stereotyped view of the
Ulster Scot rather than reflecting the reality.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of D H
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:12 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [S-I] Re; 1840 & Methodista
> Well it was a way to try and make people conform...also some
> of my lot were Presby too but in order to get a tenancy "it
> was advisable" to convert to C of I as the Landlord who had
> land to let was C of I, owned the land church was build on
> and by pure "coincidence" his son was the Rector..
> Arresting Presbyterian ministers for fornicating with their
> own wives...was also a way to intimidate/make them
> conform!Presbyterian churches had to be built a mile or more
> from towns...all sorts of "mind games" were used.
> Many people buried their dead at night..dug grave, buried the
> body in 'a graveyard', I've seen registers with "person
> buried during morning service"..while Minister was inside the
> church..they could be any religion! Has anyone heard the
> saying "I'm on the graveyard shift?" which today means
> working nights, but it was originally for the men employed to
> guard the graveyards at night to stop these burials, and also
> stop grave robbers.
> The eldest son inherited, so younger siblings had
> nothing...why should they stay? Those that did had no choice
> but to live with a tyrant of an older brother, often worse
> than the landlord! They couldn't afford to marry, leave.
> Sisters could marry if "permitted"..a dowry had to be
> forthcoming. Often the sister was told who to marry!
> Sometimes the eldest son went off "to seek his fortune" but
> never returned, he still inherited! The "unentitled" ones
> carried on living there, their descendants could still do and
> I've come across the fear some people get when they hear
> their "American cousins are trying to find
> them"...Descendants of the "titled" one?? Are they after the
> farm?? etc....
> Millions of Dollars were "sent home" every year, often to pay
> for tickets!
> Some of mine left late 1700's, I find them marrying in
> Ireland years later, then find them back in USA, their sons
> marrying in Ireland, back to USA...Can you imagine the tales
> of the new world they brought to Ireland? How many were
> tempted by them to leave? There is no group reason but
> individual ones for each person! Many left "just for the
> adventure of it"! Yes, some groups left too, like Cahan's
> Exodus. A common cause but individual decisions by many of
> them, if not all.
> The Established Church was in all essence "The Church of England"!
> As in "The Established Church of England and Ireland" which
> then became "The Disestablished Church of England and
> Ireland"...namely "The Church of Ireland" in 1870's
> Re: [S-I] Re; 1840 & Methodista
> /Date:/ Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:58:33 +0000 (UTC)
> /In-Reply-To:/ <>
> Hi Dave and others, well, others! (Dave knows it better than me),
> It is hard to grasp the concept of an established church and
> its impact on records keeping....etc
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