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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2011-12 > 1322945026

Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA Made Simple
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 20:43:46 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <434FDF80E1F6486485776D071091F975@EdwardHP>

Dear Ed,

I'm sure your post will mystify a number of list members -- those whose ancestors left long ago. I'm not even sure I am certain of which cultural war you are referring to so politely (ie obliquely).

However the cuzzins in the ol' homeland would probably be rather paranoid even if the last 40 years or so had never been. The ISGI ( publishes a great journal called "The Septs". One of their authors is an Irishwoman, born and bred, who took a vacation in America and fell in love, and so now she's here. She has set us straight on a number of things, over the years, including the very strange reasons that people assume caused her to leave Ireland, such as starvation due to the (still on-going) Potato Famine.

She wrote an article once explaining why it is that we often don't get much of a welcome from cuzzins back home. I must say here she is most definitely not from the North.

However she told a tale of someone going to meet an old couple in rural Ireland who were to show her some graves (or some such ....). She reached the spot in the road where they were to meet -- a barren stretch with nothing visible in either direction but for their home down a long lane. Drove around a couple times and was about to give up when out of the tall bracken or whatever it was crept this antique couple, all hunched over and looking over their shoulders. They crept into the car. They'd been hiding there. They were worried about the neighbors spying on them and gossiping. What neighbors? There were no other houses anywhere to be seen!!

She had many stories like this.

Besides the paranoia of the Irish, which seems genetic, she also suggested that another cause to the problem was the cuzzins who had returned, since the 1880s or so. These were cuzzins to whom the family farm might have descended. Usually they were long gone and eventually signed over rights to whoever was actually living there still, but once in a while they returned, rich after a life in America, and evicted the poor cousins who had no where else to go. This was many people's worse nightmares. So a letter arriving announcing the return of some never heard of cousins was not necessarily something people greeted with joy. It meant, if there was any money, a trip to the lawyers'. Who knows what these people might want?

Another tale I'll share. I had made the acquaintance with someone of southern Irish origins. A very enthusiastic and boisterous lady, of course. She had become converted to a religion founded in the North: Unitarianism. She had adopted a very enthusiastic and boisterous version of this religion. Off she went to Ireland. Since her family had left only recently, she knew where the cousins were to be found -- living of course on the family farm. When she arrived she set off enthusiastically to liberate them from superstition and ignorance, beginning with the Trinity. Now I am not the world's most religious person, but even I was shocked. However she had little success as they'd had a lot of practice, over the centuries, fending off this kind of crazy. I am sure they now pray daily that the Lord will not return any more crazy relatives from America as they've barely recovered from the last.

So sometimes it is not because our cuzzins are from poor old Ulster at all. The trouble could be that, whether they admit it or not, they're Irish. And we need some lessons in how to not offend them because we may do so very inadvertently.

Of course my grandmother's cousin, living in Stirling, Scotland, never responded to my letter of a few years ago either. Now there's nothing he has that we might want. There is no old farm to be had. Maybe a lump of coal, but that's it. No idea what his problem is or was. One of these days I'm coming over and banging on his door.

Linda Merle

----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Andrews" <>
To: "Carol and Joe Marlo" <>,
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 12:23:25 PM
Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA Made Simple

Please remember that there is considerable suspicion of genealogy among many
people in Ulster, and as a result those who are seeking cousins across the
pond should expect that the response will be underwhelming.

Part of the problem is that historically a particular religious group
rather insensitively sought to get involved in records and caused a lot of
grief in the 1950s. Ulster people have long memories.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Carol
> and Joe Marlo
> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:49 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA Made Simple
> Hi, Marilyn,
> I was sorry to read of your disappointing encounters with
> possible relatives, but I can't say that I'm surprised. The
> same situation has occurred with me in trying to connect with
> possible SLOWEY relatives. I find possible leads, contact
> the people politely, enclose postage if it's a non-e-mail
> address, and usually never hear from them again.
> Is it possible for you to enlist the help of someone else
> related to these "close markers"? Those of us who have that
> genealogical interest find it hard to relate to people who
> just don't care, but unfortunately, such interest cannot be
> compelled. Keep trying through thr non-DNA approaches, and
> maybe you'll still make a breakthrough.
> Carol
> ________________________________
> From: Marilyn Otterson <>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 5:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA Made Simple
> Hello, folks,
> I am writing this note that may seem a little heretical to
> many fans of Y-DNA searches, but I just wanted to show
> another side where people might not want to spend the money
> for deep searches unless the information they seek is not to
> learn if there are others out there with the same DNA, but
> other information that may gives hints to their ancestry. I
> was somewhat interested a few years ago but to start only got
> tested (well, had my dad's brother's son got his DNA tested
> for me) for 25 markers.
> I had decided that if I found somebody with a 25 marker match
> that perhaps each of us might want to go further to 37 or
> even 67 markers if we were both interested.
> Another participant on this list or another convinced her
> cousin to get tested for 25 markers, and lo! he had the same
> surname as mine and his ancestors came from the same very
> tiny townland in Co. Tyrone as mine....but he was not
> interested at all in swapping information. I figure that
> with the same markers and the same very small location we are
> probably connected not too many generations in the past, but
> since that person wasn't interested in going further, it was
> all kind of for naught. I have also had a couple of other
> people, but with different surnames, who have the same 25
> markers, but neither of them was interested in swapping
> information, either.
> I feel that if people can get such a close match it's kind of
> silly not to go further and to exchange information if not
> going for more markers. It was a real disappointment to
> learn I may have a "cousin" in Tyrone, but can't exchange
> family information since he is not interested in participating.
> I think we all, if we have DNA tested, hope we might find
> another with the shared ancestors, but when people are tested
> with no desire to discuss possible connections, or to
> research such, it's just kind of sad and futile, at least it is to me.
> Marilyn (Armstrong)(And Field, McCoy, Milligan and more)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dannye Powell" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA Made Simple
> > What is the ancestr.s name?
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
> >
> > Les Tate <> wrote:
> >
> >>I'm new to this group, however I wanted to comment that
> understanding
> >>Y-DNA results is not simple by any means.
> >>
> >>You may learn your general male line haplogroup by getting
> just the 12
> >>marker Y-DNA test (for women you'd have to submit your
> father or brother's
> >>sample), however there are more extensive tests that can
> better define the
> >>haplogroup. For instance, I've gone from 12-markers to 37
> markers to 67
> >>markers to 111-markers, plus a deep clade (SNP) test. My
> haplogroup has
> >>gone from R1b to R1b1a2a1a1b4 and it matches the Scottish
> Modal with
> >>little variation. However it doesn't end there. Since my
> SNP marker L21
> >>was positive and all the others tested thus far have been
> negative, that
> >>led me to the R-L21+ Y-DNA Project, which has several
> hundred members who
> >>are all at least R1b1 and positive for L21, with many
> having fairly well
> >>defined haplogroups as well as being positive for other
> SNPs. However all
> >>are searching for even more defining information to
> indicate where our
> >>distant ancestors came from. While I fall into the Scottish
> Cluster there,
> >>many other clusters are not Scottish. Plus!
> > ,!
> >> there are subgroups of the Scottish Cluster that are
> still being defined
> >> as more advanced SNP tests become available.
> >>
> >>Matches to your Y-DNA results may help define your Y-DNA
> ancestor's origin
> >>and if you're very fortunate, you may find someone with the
> same or a
> >>similar surname who can help extend your genealogy research
> and possibly
> >>better define your common ancestor's origin. Early in my
> Y-DNA tests and
> >>at a roadblock in my paternal genealogy research, I was
> fortunate to
> >>locate someone with the same surname who I matched
> perfectly at 12, then
> >>37, then 67 markers, although the most recent extension to
> 111 markers
> >>shows some slight variation on a couple of the more
> mutatable markers.
> >>However by working together over about two years, we found
> our common
> >>ancestor 7 generations back and I now have distant cousins who are
> >>descendants of a different son of that ancestor.
> >>
> >>We were fortunate to find that our genealogical research indicated
> >>Scottish or Scots-Irish ancestry, with our common male
> ancestor being born
> >>somewhere in Ulster (North Ireland) in 1731, migrating to
> what was to
> >>become the U.S. by 1755, moving into what were largely
> Scots-Irish areas
> >>in VA, NC, and TN by the time of the American Revolution.
> We also found he
> >>was a neighbor and hunting/exploring companion of Daniel
> Boone in Rowan
> >>County NC and was one of the Overmountain Men in the Battle
> of Kings
> >>Mountain in 1780.
> >>
> >>What I want to indicate is that your DNA testing should not be just
> >>stand-alone information, but serve to assist and augment
> your genealogy
> >>research.
> >>
> >>Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) tests can likewise provide
> general origins of
> >>your maternal line, however it is difficult to determine
> exact origins. It
> >>is also difficult to augment with your genealogy research
> since wives'
> >>maiden names were often not recorded, especially as you go
> further back in
> >>time. While my mtDNA results shows Native American
> ancestry, which is
> >>backed up by some oral family history, exact names and
> origins are not
> >>available before 1850 for my maternal line. Matches to my
> mtDNA results
> >>are few and only indicate a common Native American female ancestor
> >>somewhere in the eastern area of what is now the U.S.
> >>
> >>I don't want to discourage you or anyone else from getting
> DNA tests done,
> >>since the results can be very helpful. However it won't
> answer all the
> >>questions you may have because more questions arise with
> each new finding.
> >>
> >>Les Tate
> >>==========
> >>
> >>
> >>On Nov 28, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Heather Dau wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Linda, please recommend a book/site that spells out
> how to read DNA
> >>> results (especially Y-DNA); something understandable, please.
> >>>
> >>> Heather
> >>>
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> >>
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