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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2011-11 > 1321745573


From: Murray Bell <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] Tithe Applotment Books
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 18:32:53 -0500
References: <1806836686.7247.1321715588163.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <1806836686.7247.1321715588163.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


Linda

I knew this list would come through for me. I got some good info from you and several others.

You are so right about obtaining the actual source rather than relying on transcriptions. I certainly wasted a lot of time and effort by relying on a transcription. Back in 1984, i requested the death certificate of my gg grandmother Frances Elliott Bell. A clerk from the Ontario archives sent me back the information with the birthplace transcribed as "ireland". big deal I thought as I already knew that so I just filed it away & went in other directions. Recently I decided to track down the actual death certificate. Hard to find because they had her down as a male named Francis and the death was registered in 1893 although she died in Sept 1892. Anyways the actual death certificate had birthplace "County Monahan, Ireland". Grr, never trust transcriptions. Lesson learned.

murray


On Nov 19, 2011, at 10:13 AM, wrote:

> Hi Murray, thanks for the tip on the Monaghan list. Some of these lists are good and some not terribly helpful, depending on how much expertise is there. Before long you can be the resident guru yourself.
>
> I don't know if there is a sorted list of townlands on line for Monaghan. Frankly, every time I do work like this I re-google because it is a dynamic situation. The sites I used before might have been superceded. I don't think you need townlands of Monaghan. You just need townlands of the parish. If there is not another townland with the second name in the parish, then even if it does exist, it is not in the parish you are interested in. It's not hard at all to create a list of townlands by parish using a table in Word, OpenOffice, various spreadsheets, etc. Just add a code for the source or you'll not be sure where you got the info. Paste them in, update, then sort, if you want.
>
> Unfortunately proximity to Northern Ireland isn't what matters. It's about repositories and budgets, etc. PRONI has great townland maps for Northern Ireland. What site in the Republic has similar? I don't know. I don't research much down there. I delight doing so because then I learn, but my most recent work was in Limerick and Kerry and I don't even recall where I got townland maps at the moment! I also own "Families of County Kerry", which came in mighty handy.
>
> This site has some great resources, including geographical names:
> http://ahd.exis.net/monaghan/default.htm and early maps. Includes lines to IreAtlas http://www.seanruad.com/ and some great Irish links, like to known Cromwellian Adventurers.
>
> Also check out http://www.clogherhistory.ie . Maybe find a knowledgable person through them.
>
> Unfortunately you may have to do your own research here. Ie, create a spreadsheet for parishes and townlands, copy it all in with the name of the soruce for the info (or I guarentee you'll regret it -- use a number for each source,,,faster. Be sure to paste in source info and corresponding number). Then sort away. You can then at least prove there are not two townlands with these names. Then see if one of the websites will host it. That'll earn you brownie points and maybe some free help.
>
> I got some similar posts that I think have been waiting for an answer for 20 years. Apparently no one knows the answers so I got to find it out.
>
> I might add the googling on the Internet for this stuff is not very PC. "Real genealogists" use real books and manuscripts and visit real repositories <grin>. These places definitely have more good stuff than the Internet, but it is harder to find. However I google a lot. Sometimes it is easier to use materials on lines. Some old maps can be zoomed up and viewed easier on line, for example. So I am not very PC either <grin>. I am also lazy. However were I wanting some day to publish my findings in a semi-respectable book or article, I'd consider viewing the actual source by ordering microfilm or visiting the FHL in Salt Lake, PRONI, etc. The reason is transcription errors do occur, I need a vacation once in a while, and lastly websites are very transient. It's like trying to use dead witnesses to a murder in a trial. Criminals murder witnesses because once dead, they can't give testimony. So I have also learned (the hard way) to preserve any web content myself. I have a fr!
ee!
> driver that looks like a printer. I print to it instead of the printer and it produces a PDF file. Your heirs and generations of family researchers will love you if you do this.
>
> Having 'real' manuscript sources does enhance the quality and value of a family history, so it's worth keeping in mind. Please publish it too. It's cheap to do so these days and the family historians of the future will bless you.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Linda Merle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Murray Bell" <>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 9:44:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [S-I] Tithe Applotment Books
>
> Linda,
>
> Thanks. I did try the monaghan list but not much response. Someone did respond with Feegavla as the equivalent of Figevly though.
>
> I thought this list would be a good spot to try since although Monaghan is not politically part of northern ireland, it is part of Ulster and there was a substantial Scotch Irish presence there.
>
> One question on the Tithe Applotment books. Is there a anywhere on line that they are sortable by townland? I would like to find out what other families lived on the Figevly townland.
>
> Some of your sources I have already checked but I will certainly look into the others
>
> thanks for your help.
>
> murray
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2011, at 9:08 PM, wrote:
>
>> Hi Murray, I hope someone on the list is a Monaghan expert.
>>
>> I am not. Unfortunately Monaghan is not in the Placenames of Ulster series, near as I know. This series provides the history of not only each townland but other placenames (villages, etc). It would tell you if the two names are for the same place. So you will need to consult some atlases as well as histories of Monaghan and the parish. Also note the landlord and estate. You may find info in the estate history.
>>
>> There are also a list of 'standard' places to search in Monaghan. I usually use Ryan "Irish Records" but Fianna has some good webpages:
>>
>> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/county/monaghan.html
>>
>> You may note that the Scotch Irish list largely researches in Northern Ireland. Monaghan is not in Northern Ireland so I urge you to check with a county list.
>> One place to find parish maps is: http://www.pasthomes.com/info/samples.php
>> Another place, besides the Internet, is the Family History Library. It may have maps including estate maps. You use the catalog to find these. It used to be before the Internet that you went there first and ordered microfilm.
>>
>> A brief list of the 'no brainer', 101 level of records available is here:
>> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/county/monaghan/mogmisc.html But if you did some research in the FHL catalog and a book like Ryan "Irish Records or Grenham you'll find others.
>>
>>> What protestant. church records exist for Donaghmoyne Parish for the period 1800-1840. The family was Methodist but I realize Methodist's often utilized the Church Of ireland.
>>
>> You generally would check Ryan "Irish Records" to get this answer. The Fianna webpage may hold the answer:
>> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/county/monaghan/mogcoi.html Says 1878 for Church of Ireland. Check
>> http://www.rootsireland.ie/ . They may be indexed at the County Heritage Centre . Also check the FHL -- not only the front page index but the Irish record collection. Just because Fianna says the records are locally held doesn't mean that is still true.
>>
>> Methodists were not confined to parishes. There were various types of Methodists and their circuits overlapped. You need to check any Methodist records you can find within that is nearby, ignoring parishes, just as if researching in the USA you would ignore county and township lines, knowing the ancestors had legs and horses and could cross them at will.
>>
>> Often we hope -- or I sure did and still do -- someone has the answers to our questions. No one ever seemed to have mine so I had to learn to find them myself. It seems for Irish genealogy nothing is simple. There isn't a single place to find records -- you usually have to search a couple places. It's the nature of Irish research. Things are not well aggregated.
>>
>> Possibly your best hope to find some one who already knows the answers is the Monaghan list.
>>
>> If Figevly is in the same parish and about the same size as Feegavla it could well be the same. You may be able to tell this from comparing Griffiths and the Tithe Applotments. However a local person would know and there's likely to be more of them on a Monaghan list .
>>
>> Best of luck,
>>
>> Linda Merle
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Murray Bell" <>
>> To:
>> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 7:50:01 PM
>> Subject: [S-I] Tithe Applotment Books
>>
>> After many years of searching for my ancestors in the wrong counties, I have recently had reason to zero in on County Monaghan regarding my GG grandparents-Jeremiah Bell And Frances Elliott. I recently discovered that Frances Elliott was born in County Monaghan. I then did a search of the Tithe applotment books for Monaghan and found a Jaramiah Bell in 1824 living in Figevly townland, Donaghmoyne parish. In trying to figure out where to go from here, I have the following questions which I am hoping someone can help me with.
>>
>> 1. Figevly townland cannot be found in subsequent records. In Griffiths there is a Feegavla townland in Donaghmoyne. How do I verify that Figevly=Feegavla?
>> 2. Does a townland map exist for Donaghmoyne Parish & where can I get a copy?
>> 3. What protestant. church records exist for Donaghmoyne Parish for the period 1800-1840. The family was Methodist but I realize Methodist's often utilized the Church Of ireland.
>>
>> Any advice much appreciated.
>>
>> tanks, murray Bell
>>
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