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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2011-03 > 1299931761
From:
Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Johnsons of the Iroquois
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 12:09:21 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <1154411949.2550605.1299930699934.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Sarah, if you check the archives of the list, you will find some information on Johnson extracted from some of Allan Eckert's novels. I don't recall which had the most on Johnson -- anyone else recall?
However I believe the short answer is NO. His sisters would do us no good as they do not have his Y DNA. He was the nephew of his uncle, who was a prominent figure (and whose name I forget). As he is a prominant figure, people are interested in his genealogy. Those people are not on this list. How do you find them? The usual way: googling, checking for periodicals in PERSI, following up on Eckert's bibliography.
Actually the information is really not even directly relevant to this list because he was an Irish Catholic from Leinster (Meath), not Scotch Irish (Ulster). People researching HIM would not be HERE unless they were rather lost! This is probably the last place you'd look for Irish Catholics as we have less knowledge about Catholics in Ireland than any other Irish list (we specialize in Protestants from Ulster).
His mother's line was Protestant, and no, I don't recall her surname. If I knew it, it's in the archives of this list. (It's my memory!). She was disinherited for marrying an Irish Catholic. The other places where he is a topic of direct interest are lists relating to the colonial period or the French and Indian War and the United Empire Loyalists in Canada. She was also, like dad, living in Meath. Leinster is not in Ulster and we don't have a lot of Leinster here. Before religion became relevant to your search, you'd have to ID the family in Meath through probably land records, probably looking for the uncle's family, but I've googled and not found anything. Maybe if you google longer you can find that someone has tracked them down. Or google now. I googled a year or so, maybe 2 years, when I was reading the novels.
Since he was a historical figure, information relating to him that is known can generally be found. It's hard to believe this man had a family Bible or practiced Christianity as he 'went native', as they say. Bigtime, and lived with an Indian woman, unmarried, for many years, and fathered many children with many Indian women. If there is such a Bible, it's in Canada with his descendants.
The point is the info I know is in the archives and all you have to do is look it up. If I wanted to know more I'd have to do the same.
Linda Merle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 10:50:16 PM
Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Johnsons of the Iroquois
Hi Jerry,
I was wondering if your Johnsons had sisters ?? Two of my Flemings
married Johnson sisters in early yrs...........Jane and Martha I
believe..........The Flemings were James and John. They came to USA in
1720-30s into MD and PA. OH for a good look at the family Bible ....its in
NI and guarded very well.........no one gets to look at it and it would
solve soooo many problems.
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Johnsons of the Iroquois
> Hi Jerry, except that it is certainly unscientific (and ungenealogical as
> well) to assume that because Johnson's family came from County Meath that
> his ancestors belonged to a particular Irish tribe! Especially when the
> county is Meath, which has seen in the past much immigration and
> disruption -- especially of Irish tribes. And isn't well known for being
> richly populated with O'Neills.
>
> The only way to know for sure is to test his DNA. As far as I know, and I
> may be out of date here, his descendants in Canada refuse to agree to have
> their DNA tested.
>
> Plus some of the old lineages of the O'Neills are wrong, according to DNA
> evidence, so without gathering some DNA and doing some testing, it's a bit
> risky to make broad claims based on the on lineages. Esp. about a name
> like Johnson in a place like Meath! Hoots, man, they could be Welsh as the
> Normans are believed to have lugged over their tenants from their estates
> in the Pale.
>
> So if we find a lot of Iroquois with one Irish DNA marker, we could deduce
> that this is his DNA, but we then again we may be wrong so such a
> deduction would need to be made quite tentatively . If put on the stand in
> a court of law and asked "Did you test the DNA of known descendants of Wm
> J?", you'd have to say No. (You could say yes, but when pressed to produce
> the test you'd end up looking a bit like a certain crazy American actor!).
> If asked "Do you know the Y DNA signature of Wm. J?" You'd have to say No,
> but...." and the lawyer would say "No further questions" and you'd scamper
> back to your seat.
>
> This is aside from the second issue of then proving that a DNA sample that
> you know represents Wm. J's DNA is O'Neillian. Not as hard to do, but not
> black or white either, since the he could match the main line (up in
> Ulster -- not sure how the royal O'Neills would end up in Meath) which is
> not Irish at all but Frisian due to an NPE of some sort a thousand years
> ago or he could match the DNA of the electing clans. Of course they're not
> in Meath either. But these people did have legs and could move about.
>
> But if I'm out of date and you can actually prove this, will you share the
> source?
>
> Linda Merle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Kelly" <>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 1:32:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Johnsons of the Iroquois
>
> Adding to Linda's good information below, in William Johnson's case,
> "Johnson" was a cover name for Mac Séan (the Ulster dialect version of
> 'Son of John', pronounced 'MacShane' in English), which is a branch of the
> Ó Néill (Grandson of Niall) family, which in turn is a branch of the
> Cinéal nEoghain (Kinship of Eoghan) of the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill
> of the north) of the Uí Néill (Descendants of Niall) of the Connachta
> (Descendants of Conn - here we're dealing with the major pre-Christian
> tribe which gave their name to Connacht) of the Féine (variously
> translated as 'nobles', 'free people', etc.) The Connachta took the area
> called Connacht by about the 4th Century A.D. from another people called
> the Fir nOl nÉcmacht. Niall's sons, including Johnson's ancestor Eoghan,
> expanded into Ulster in the mid-5th Century A.D.
>
>
> Go raibh sé sin cabhrach / Hope that's helpful.
>
>
> Le gach dea-ghuí / Best,
> Jerry
>
> Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press
> www.druidpress.com
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ""
> <>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 3:01 AM
> Subject: SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 6, Issue 45
>>
>>The old Iroquis tribes -- apparently many, maybe hundreds, of Indian
>>maidens were presented to William Johnson (a lad from Ireland, too), who
>>was accepted as an Indian and it was a big thing to have his baby.
>>Apparently his descendants were Loyalists who later moved to Canada. His
>>known descendants, and they refuse to allow DNA testing. If this is true,
>>though, a certain amount of Irish DnA went into these tribes in the early
>>1700s -- and got pushed west and north by events.
>>
>>Linda Merle
>
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