Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 2010-08 > 1282412175
Subject: Re: [S-I] List of NLI Manuscripts with Pedigrees
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:36:15 +0000 (UTC)
Hi Jim, I'm no expert in this stuff. If anyone is, let them speak up! There's a list at rootsweb -- DNA-newbie, that is good for getting basic questions. The DNA-genealogy list is populated by the principals -- and they're very hard to understand. they'll answer but you may have to wade through many posts that might as well be written in Martian before you find your answer.
Check here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx It explains the gist of it. That is that genetics is changing SO fast that everything becomes obsolete about every 2 years or so. The northwest Irish group was call R1b1c7c, or M222, but after a re-do of the family tree, it's now known as R1b1b2e. However you can't change the names of these lists.
So only this, eh, R1b1b2e is "northwest Irish". That's the English name given to it. It is associated with the O'Neills. Of course there are other types of DNA in north west Ireland, but they are not officially known as "North west Irish". That name was pasted onto eh... R1b1b2e or old R1b1c7 or M222. The M222 designation comes into play because as the above website says: "The R-M222 branch of the Y-DNA tree is defined by a single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) called M222".
Read here for your type (found by googling):
It's 'suffered' from lack of research. It's a huge clade, just now being subdivided. Me own father is R1b1b2, and I need to get more testing done on him. His ancestors are from a little village way up in the Pennines in England. I have never even found a 37 marker match for him. Scientists tell me this isn't surprising because this is a very old group and apparently many lines are extinct. My dad's kind of like one of those fish they thought were extinct for a zillion years till one day someone catches one way out in the ocean. I need to have his haplo group confirmed. It's just 'predicted'. His ancestry would appear to be Frisian, ie northern German. He may be part of a group who arrived in England LONG before the Romans. It is now believed (unless this theory has been recently debunked) that German was spoken in England long before the Romans. One reason is that English has no close relatives among the Germanic tongues indicating it has been isolated for a very long time. The linguists have worked it from that angle. It seems to jive with what the DNA guys are finding, but every day a new theory.
M222 (northwest Irish) is of course not the oldest DNA in northwest Ireland since it supposedly arrived with the O'Neills. It is still argued with M222 mutated into existence in Ireland or the Continent. Unless I am REALLY behind in my reading <grin>. So who was there before? Ummm....welll, gee, I can't understand the stuff in DNA-genealogy either! I believe they think some of the rarer types are but whether yours is one or not, I donno. I tend to think it is an I, but there again, I can't keep up.
Join the R1b1b2 group. To do that you gotta get confirmed, ie order the clade test. So do I, for me dad.
This tree is helpful:
The truth is your ancestors could have been in Ireland for thousands of years. At any time a man living somewhere else might have come there. That's how everyone else's ancestor got to Ireland too. From somewhere else. At some point the main O'Neill line was lost so the Royal O'Neills are now of the same type of DNA as you and my father. This could have happened in 900AD. They're not sure, of course <grin>. It could have occurred due to an adoption as well as an 'Englishman in the woodpile" <grin>. These folks adopted children easily and frequently when in need of an heir. So you are in good company.
In 1397 the Statutes of Kilkenny were passed. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Kilkenny .
They attempted to stem the flow of English into Irish. They assimilated rapidly apparently perceiving that the Irish had more fun. They had more music, more hair, more wives -- well, it does appear they had more fun! As soon as one got off the boat it started. Before long he'd married an Irish girl and his children were speaking only Irish and wearing Irish clothes, writing poetry, feuding with the neighbors..... These statutes forced Irish living in the Pale (the area under English influence around Dublin: shrank sharply and grew slowly, contracting back to the walls of Dublin depending on the times) to take English style surnames. One kind they could take was a color or occupation. I have always wandered: why no Blues or Purples? We have Blacks and Whites but where is Mr Orange or Red? In any case this lead to the loss of much info about the Leinster tribes. An unknown number of Welsh tenants accompanied their lords to Ireland in the centuries after Strongbow as well. Well, maybe someone sorted it out last week....I donno.
That might account for your surname or it might have been a nickname, like Sean ban (John the white). His kids took Ban, someone translated it to white.
In any case due to the O'Neill problem, we know your DNA type has been in Ireland a long time. The Irish, after all, raided the coasts of England and Scotland in the Dark Ages. After the Vikings were kicked out of Dublin (1014??), they sailed around England and landed in Yorkshire, if memory is correct and the idea hasn't been debunked. No one's DNA was checked before they boarded to make sure they were a genetic Viking.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim White" <>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:42:12 AM
Subject: Re: [S-I] List of NLI Manuscripts with Pedigrees
My MRCA is from Sligo, Ireland, ca 1765, and possibly as far back as 1710.
However, my Haplogroup is R1b1b2a1b, or P312.
My questions are:
1) What is the difference between R1b1b2a1b & R1b1C7 ?
2) Is R1b1b2a1b not classified as NW Ireland ?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 10:28 AM
Subject: [S-I] List of NLI Manuscripts with Pedigrees
> Hi folks, on the DNA-R1B1C7 list (that's the north west Irish DNA type,
> though name is now obsolete), Bernard Morgan posted these. I forward them
> here because some of us discover our Y chromo is Irish and so might need
> these and there's a list of Scottish families of Irish descent.
> Linda Merle
> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:32:00 +0000
> From: Bernard Morgan <>
> Subject: [R-M222] NLI G manuscripts with pedigrees
> To: dna-r1b1c7 <>
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Just to share: I found the following NLI manuscripts contained pedigrees:
> G2, G61, G192, G140, G177, G291, G318, G22, G87, G112, G173, G216, G356,
> G131. They are mainly small collections of major families.
> G177 `Pedigrees of Irish Families' (c.1724) has the following pedigrees
> for the descendants of Eireamhon:
> p. 46 col. b Cr?obhscaoileadh Chlanna N?ill, Muinter Chroidh?in; p. 47
> col. a ? maoilchonaire, ? Duibhgeannainn; remainder of col. a and col. b
> blank; p. 48 col. a ? Cath?in, ? Goirmfhleadhaigh, ? Ma?ilseachluinn, Mac
> Geochag?in; col. b ? Mailmh?aidh, Cineal mBindeadh, ? Fairchailligh, ?
> Eodhasa, ? Meall?in, ? Conall?in; p. 49 a ? Craoibhe, ? Losgaigh, ?
> Domhnaill, ? Dalaigh Fine Beara, ? Dalaigh .i. Feargal mac Taidhg, ?
> D?laigh na Breifne; col. b ? Buidhill, ? Dochartuigh, Meagudhain, ?
> Gallchobhair, p. 50 col. a ? Canand?in, Mac in Linn?in; col. b ? Flanag?in
> Tuatha Ratha, ? Mao?ldoraigh, ? ?g?in `n? ?g?in do r?ir dru?nge oil?',
> S?ol ?odha Sl?ine .i. ? Ceallaigh Breagh, Clann Briain Laighn?gh; p. 51
> col. a Clann Mhuircheartaigh Mhuimhn?gh, Clann Ainnr?as; col. b Clann
> N?ill Ghil, ? Cargamhna, Mac Meadha T?re :aoghachan, Mac Cathmha?l,
> Muintir Mhathgamhna; p. 52 col. a Mac Anadh, ? Ceallaigh; col. b. Mag
> Guidheir `.i. n?adhfhiaghnuisi', Mac Maghnusa in tSeinidh, ? Gafraid!
> h, ? Anl?ain, ? Domhnaill Chlainne Ceallaigh; p. 53 col. a ?
> Ionnrachtuigh, Fear Rois, Mac an Anaigh, Ua Colm?in Maigen, ? Airt, Mac
> Aodhagain; col. b ? Mad?in, ? Neachtain, Mac Tighearn?in Clainne
> bhFearghail, ? Bresail Macha; p. 54 col. a ? Lorc?in, ? Buidheall?in, ?
> Daimh?n, Mac Conmhail, Colum Cille, Baoith?n, ? Conchobhair R?adh; col. b
> ? Conchobhair Donn; p. 55 col. a ? Conchobhair Sligigh; Craoghscaoileadh
> ar ? Conchobhair Sligigh, Mac Maghnusa T?re Tuathail, Sliocht in
> Chearrbhaigh, Muintir Leathruis, Mac Diarmoda, Mac Diarmada Gall; col. b
> Mac Diarmada R?adh, Sliocht Maoileachluinn Duinn, Mac Muirghiosa, ?
> Cruadhlao?ch, Mac Donnchadha T?re h?illiolla; p. 56 col. a Mac Donchadha
> in Choruinn, Mac Donnchadha Riabhach, Cormac na Formaoile; col. b
> dFearaibh Sc?ine sonn': list of families, ? Flannagh?in, Muintir
> Dhomhnall?in in Ro?s, Oircinach Bhaile na cCl?ireach, Mac Oireachtu?gh; p.
> 57 col. a Mac Breanuinn, ? Beirnn, An Bearnabhlach, ? Fallamhuin; col. b ?
> Floinn L?n?!
> , ? ?inl?ghe, ? Bran?in; p. 58 col. a ? Concheannuinn, ? Flaithbhearta
> igh, Mac Aodh[a] na Corcaidhe; col. b ? Ruairc, Clann U? N?ill ? Ruairc,
> Mac Cathail Riabhach; p. 59 col. a Clann Tigharnaigh, Sliocht
> Muireadhaigh, Clann Lochluinn, Mac Maoileachlainn na Crann?ige, Mac
> Contsnamha, ? Raghallaigh; col. b Mac Bradaigh, Mac Samhradh?in, Mac
> Tighearn?in, ? Maille; p. 60 col. a ? Moch?in, ? Seachn?suigh; col. b ?
> Eidhin `nuadhfhiaghnuise', ? Ceallaigh M?ine, ? Scanl?in; p. 61 ccl. a ?
> Cleirigh, ? Giolla Cheallaigh, ? Duibhda, Sliocht Cholla ?ais: Iarla
> ?ntroma; col. b Mac Domhnaill Uiladh, Clann nDomhnaill Laighean, ? Gniomh,
> Mac Sithighe, Mac Dubhghuill, Clann Samhairle, ? Floinn Tuirtr?, p. 62
> col. a ? Cormaic M?onmhuighe, Sliocht Laoighaire Luirc mic I?gaine Mh?ir:
> Mac Murchadha; col. b Sliocht Tomais Fhinn, ? Conchubhair Fhailghe; p. 63
> col. a ? D?omusaigh, ? Duinn, ? Broin, Gabhail Raghnuill, Gabhail
> tSiom?in; col. b ? Tuathail, ? Murchadha, ? Dubhlaidhi, ? Duibhighir, ?
> Conduiigh; p. 64 col. a Beanntroighe, ? Riaghain, ? Aongusa, ? Mal?ghra!
> , Mac Giolla Beanntroighe, ? Riaghain, ? Aongusa, ? Mal?ghra, Mac Giolla
> Ph?ttruig; col. b Clann Gorm?in, ? Br?on?in, ? Nuall?in, ? Faol?in, ?
> Aodha; p. 65 col. a ? Criomhthainn, ? Uigin, Mac Suibhne Fan?id; col. b
> Mac Suibhne na tTuaidhe, Mac Suibhne Conacht (`at?id dronga oile on?racha
> ann don chinese Clann tSuibhne nach bhfuil s?os ann so'); p. 66 col. a
> Craoibhsgaoile U? Niall?in, Sliocht Siom?in, Sliocht Dabhigh; col. b R?gh
> Alban; p. 67 col. a Mac Giolla E?in, Mac Duinnsleibhe; `Agas is don
> craoibhsi na sloinntesi s?os a nAlbainn': list of Scottish families of
> Irish descent.
> someone thanked him and translated some into English:
> thank ye john, yer a gud mon, ye are! amulligane, mchago, o'shea, nugent,
> mcpartland, brown, beall, sullivan, mcbee, mckee, evans, moody, reed,
> mclean, brandon, mcgriff, kerr, thompson, collins, scanlon, duane,
> best, douglas, edgar, kerr, mcaleese, mcdonnell, burns, gribble, keith,
> afren, clan mcgowan...galloway, nithsdale,ballynashee, ballyclare,
> ballyeaston, donegore, wigtonshire, kerry,tyrone, antrim, meath, west
> donegal, derry, scottish borders.
> Yup, my eyes are crossing too. The website is easier to read.
> These are in the FHL I believe.
> FHL = FHL (www.familysearch.org)
> NLI = National Library of Ireland (http://www.nli.ie/en/homepage.aspx) but
> order microfilm to your local FHL and view for a month rather than
> spending a week's vacation in a library instead of drinking Guinness and
> eating potatoes.
> Linda Merle
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