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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2009-05 > 1243021040


From: "Cliff. Johnston" <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] Register of Derry Cathedral 1642-1703
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:37:23 -0500
References: <365679753.9336841242760871112.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><029F0DE121264EAEBAEAF12A452934A7@DF57ZS51>


Karen,

There are several DNA testing services; however, there is only one that
provides all of the support services that are necessary, and that company is
FTDNA. Here's a link to them:

http://www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx?c=1

While some testing services are less expensive and one is free, FTDNA has
the lions' share of the business. Most of the other companies do not test
for the same values that FTDNA does. This makes it difficult to find
matches when trying to compare test results with the majority of the people
who have used FTDNA which in turn prompts many who used the "other" services
to buy a "make-up" test from FTDNA. This adds to the expense and
frustration for many. Do it right the first time. Use FTDNA from the
beginning, and you'll be a much happier person :-)

If you're testing for Y-DNA then by all means have the 67-markers test done
from the start. Why? Because we of the Johnstons in Poldean have found
that trying to sort out family lines using only the 37-markers tests is
HIGHLY unreliable. It takes the 4th Panel of tests to sort out family
groups. We've had some very major surprises when Cousins have upgraded from
the 37-markers tests to the 67-markers tests.

I'd suggest that you start your family group on Yahoo also. Here's the link
to our Johnstons in Poldean group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnstonsInPoldean

I hope that this gives some of you ideas as to how to get the ball rolling
with your family Cousins. Family trees can be posted in the FILES section
for all to see, and family photo albums can be posted in the PHOTOS section.
Three years ago when I had my Y-DNA tested there were only 4 others who
thought that they were in the Poldean lineage, and then only 1 was certain.
Today we have over 30 who have tested and a Johnston Family Newsletter that
goes out to over 60 Cousins now. I'd also suggest limiting membership to
those who apply only. That way you can keep out spammers easier.

The biggest problem that I'm having with my Yahoo group is that many of the
older members do not have enough computer skills to feel comfortable using
the group's features. While our Newsletter goes out to over 60 Cousins,
only 33 are using the Yahoo group, but then it's only been up for about 6
months. It takes time for many to get over their fear of the computer and
log on, BUT it is worth it.

Good hunting,

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [S-I] Register of Derry Cathedral 1642-1703


> Ok, I'm convinced! So what's a good place to begin? There must be many,
> or
> at least several, DNA companies that do this service. I'd love to hav
> eyour
> recommendation(s) about good ones -- "good" means reasonably priced,
> results
> I can understand, and a way to get in touch with others with the same
> results. Is all this possible?
> Thanks,
> Karen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [S-I] Register of Derry Cathedral 1642-1703
>
>
>> Hi Connie,
>>
>> The truth of the matter is that no one wrote down all the names of
>> British
>> colonial immigrants. NO one. Zilch. Yes, they recorded those Germans who
>> came. They were not British citizens and had to swear loyality --- never
>> know what they might do! (Wow, was the British government wrong about who
>> would endanger the colonies <grin>). They screwed up, big time. A few did
>> get documented -- this causes us to hope, but seriously, most didn't.
>> There was also no law requiring that the names of people emigrating from
>> Ireland be written down. When Parliament did try to do that, after the
>> American Revolution, and to restrict emigration to the unskilled,
>> everyone
>> just lied about their name or occupation ...... or got picked up by the
>> ship off the tiny bay they lived near after they were rowed out by the
>> neighbors.
>>
>> It's dang hard to find records that never were made! It's easier to
>> channel these people and ask them from the other side.
>>
>> So for most of us we will either learn to live with no ancesters (but
>> lots
>> of beliefs about them!) or we do DNA research. When you get a DNA match
>> with Brewsters in Ulster you'll know two things -- where to look closer
>> at
>> more miserable records to search and where your ancestors might have
>> lived.
>>
>> With one of my clients, he had a match with descendents of a man who
>> emigrated to Australia. The Australian records are excellent so when he
>> died in the late 1800s, his town of birth was recorded. His baptism
>> survived so we already knew about that 'pod' of people with the surname.
>> No one with the surname seems to be left in Ireland. No big deal! If they
>> had stayed we'd never have had such good records as we got from the
>> Australian line. Since there was not a match to various other families
>> with the surname, we also knew they were not the right ones. This'll work
>> even if everyone left Ireland, in other words. It might work better!
>>
>> Wonder if they were really Scottish and where in Scotland they came from?
>> Find out the truth. These days the experts can tell you if it is highland
>> Scot DNA or lowland DNA. Most of the colonial Campbells, for example, are
>> all of the same tribe....closely related....some from Ireland and some
>> from Scotland...but dang, all peas out of the same pod. Apparently a lot
>> of Campbell galloglass came to Donegal long before the plantation, I'm
>> told. I don't know if they've figured out where ground zero is....I know
>> they're working on it.
>>
>> With my client, I had done a preliminary Irish study to see where in
>> Ireland the surname occured. I got two pods of them cropping up in
>> various
>> records now easily available: Griffiths, Tithe Applotments, freemen's
>> lists, etc. After we got the DNA results, we hired someone in Northern
>> Ireland to look into the estate records. Know how much more we found?
>> ZERO. Had someone do research in the National Archives in Dublin for
>> another estate and convert rolls, etc. NADA. So we've spent a lot of
>> money
>> and turned up nothing. Unfortunately, this happens a lot. Perhaps of
>> course they were all living on another estate we didn't check. The point
>> is the preliminary study is what gave us the data to go looking for men
>> to
>> test. The traditional research turned up nothing despite hundreds of
>> dollars.
>>
>> The DNA type put them in a group of people that are being widely studied
>> by geneticists in Dublin. They're an offshoot of one of the royal Irish
>> lines!! Who would believe it....the hills of Tennessee are full of lost
>> Irish princes. Their DNA is being studied for free by the geneticists
>> trying to figure out exactly how they fit in. Don't know that we'll ever
>> have anything that will prove it outside of DNA. This did make sense of
>> some oral history from the early 1800s when a woman of the family was
>> caught up in a riot in Belfast. She escaped by talking Irish to the
>> rioters. They didn't believe a Protestant could speak Irish. However as
>> late as the early 1800s this family kept alive their Irish and it saved
>> her life!
>>
>> So when I say the DNA research could be your only option....I mean it.
>> You
>> may not be able to find more records in Ireland than you can find these
>> days on the Internet and in the FHL-- without channeling them and
>> demanding they give you the name of their landlord.
>>
>> So stop hoping and track down a male Brewster, wrestle him to the ground
>> (it's like bagging a sheep to sheer him) and get his DNA. You don't need
>> his blood, just a tissue swipe from his mouth (this might make him more
>> cooperative). Then in only the longest six weeks or so of your
>> life....you'll have a new mystery! What do these DNA results mean?
>>
>> There's a forum at www.ulsterheritage.com for sharing DNA results, by the
>> way.
>>
>> Linda Merle
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Connie Shotts" <>
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 1:53:28 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Register of Derry Cathedral 1642-1703
>>
>> Thanks, Linda. As always, you give the best answers! I am look for the
>> family of James Bruster/Brewster/Bruister, born about 1745 near Coleraine
>> and left for America about 1760-1765. I believe the family was originally
>> Scots and had probably been in Northern Ireland for at least a couple of
>> generations prior to James' birth. In Virginia, James was a sheep farmer
>> and I suspect that he/his family were sheep farmers in Ireland as well.
>> All
>> I know for sure is that in 1798 a Robert Bruster, probably a cousin of
>> James
>> (who was then in Jessamine County KY), died in Mercer County KY and in
>> his
>> will left his estate to the sons of his brother who were living "about
>> three
>> miles from Coleraine" in Ireland when he left Ireland in the 1770s. That
>> is
>> the only solid lead I have back to Ireland; otherwise it's just the
>> family
>> lore that says James Brewster was born in County Derry Ireland around
>> 1745
>> and came to America as a young man.
>>
>> I appreciate your help and your recommendations. I take them to heart and
>> search as you recommend -- just haven't found anything yet, and know that
>> I
>> may not from that time period -- but I keep hoping and looking!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:34 AM
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Register of Derry Cathedral 1642-1703
>>
>> Hi Connie,
>>
>> When the plantations were begun after the ending of 50 years of war in
>> Ulster, there were no churches with a roof on them. What were left were
>> ruins of ancient parishes and monasteries. In the early 1600s with the
>> destruction of Catholicism, these were 'taken over' by Protestants. Some
>> were too ruined to rehab, so some parish churches were built anew.
>> Preaching
>> in these were ministers. In the first 30 years the Presbyterian church
>> had
>> not been separated from the Church of Ireland. Actually it was impossible
>> to
>> lure English parsons to Ulster to their death. The planting of Ulster was
>> one in a series of such events implemented by England in Ireland -- and
>> they
>> all ended in the slaughter of the settlers. That's one reason King James
>> lured over the Scots, he couldn't convince many English to try this ....
>> again.
>>
>> The Scots were more used to harsh conditions and had been forbidden to
>> migrate there before -- so they came. Reversing previous English policy
>> regarding the settlement of Scots in Ireland was one of Jamie's more
>> radical
>> decisions. Most English felt it would not end well.
>>
>> So most of the early ministers were Scots. They faced an ordeal in the
>> 1630s
>> when the high churchmen took control of the Church of England and of
>> Ireland. They persecuted non-subscribing Protestants (instead of
>> Catholics)
>> -- so ministers who would not recognize bishops were ejected from their
>> parishes. Some returned to Scotland and some preached illegally while
>> doing
>> subsistence farming -- living far below the income of any Church of
>> Ireland
>> ministers who came to replace them.
>>
>> The picture you should have in your mind is that of very few churches of
>> all
>> of any name. People living in Ulster (many Scots highlanders, native
>> Irish,
>> descendents of Welsh, English, Scots (like the Bissetts), etc -- they
>> were
>> no doubt amazed to see any clergy. Having had little opportunities for
>> Sunday School, they were not clear on the differences amongst various
>> clergy. If someone wanted to get married or baptized, often they were
>> lucky
>> to find someone, anyone, willing to do it. Or they traveled far --- to
>> Templemore or Belfast or some place with clergy.
>>
>> In addition to this state where no one was well aware yet of the
>> religious
>> differences that would soon divide Ulster's people for hundreds of years,
>> the upper class was realizing that under English law, to inherit an
>> estate,
>> you needed a legal heir -- you needed a legal marriage (such as only the
>> Church of Ireland or later the Quakers could do) and baptized heirs --
>> baptized in the church of Ireland.
>>
>> So regardless of private religious beliefs, in these early years, many
>> people were married and baptized in the Church of Ireland. Rule number 2
>> or
>> 3 of Irish genealogy is ALWAYS check the Church of Ireland parish
>> records,
>> no matter what you think their religion was. They might appear. You might
>> get lucky.
>>
>> Two things work against us here: Not all parishes in the early days were
>> functional. Many had no minsters or buildings. What did those people do?
>> What do we do now? We go to one that is functioning. The second problem
>> is
>> that many of the early records not only were not kept (since there was no
>> functional church in that parish) but many were later destroyed. Luckily
>> there were no walls between parishes and people were free to move about
>> the
>> country. Then as now, people married in the wife's parish, so your
>> ancestor,
>> cemented into some back-water townland in a non functional parish, might
>> have been married in another parish where his future wife lived.
>>
>> Therefore you search WIDE. You always do.
>>
>> Luckily very earily surviving parish records are often published, like
>> Templemore. Books that teach about how to do Irish genealogy identify the
>> Templemore registers as a vast regional treasurehouse. Lots of Irish
>> names
>> amongst them as well as -- well, you never know. So if your ancestor
>> lived
>> in Ulster, y ou should check these registers as well as early ones from
>> Belfast. The Belfast ones may contain the names of individuals living in
>> northern Antrim or other directions fairly far from Belfast. I could go
>> on
>> and on but it's too much for an email, assuming I could remember what I
>> read
>> about it <grin>! Falley may cost $150 but most likely a library near you
>> has
>> a copy....and she had a whole chapter on just Church of Ireland records
>> that
>> includes a history of the Church of Ireland -- relevant to a
>> genealogist's
>> concerns of finding the records.
>>
>> Many of the people in the Templemore registers are identified by the
>> townland or parish where they live. So you can sometimes get a bead on
>> where
>> that was by the entry. Of course some are not. Unless it is indexed by
>> place, how would John know if there are people in there from Coleraine? I
>> can't recall, myself if it is or not.
>>
>> Using Worldcat.org, the nearest copy is 173 miles away in Buffalo. I
>> believe
>> the FHL has a copy too. I either used it there or in New England at
>> NEHGS.
>> Library of Congress of course has a copy.....etc...
>>
>> Meaning, everyone should check this book as part of your Irish
>> research --
>> the no brainer round when you check all the 'low hanging fruit' that's
>> relatively easy to get to, especially if you are nice to John and don't
>> make
>> fun of his ephods.
>>
>> Linda Merle
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Connie Shotts" <>
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:19:01 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Register of Derry Cathedral 1642-1703
>>
>> Regarding the Register of Derry Catherdral: I understand that this covers
>> the Templemore parish -- is that correct? Does it cover any other parish
>> records, such as Dunboe (Coleraine area)?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
>>
>> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:01 PM
>> To:
>> Subject: [S-I] Register of Derry Cathedral 1642-1703
>>
>> Shirley
>>
>> Thank you for the kind offer but I've purchased a CD of the register
>>
>> _www.whollygenes.com_ (http://www.whollygenes.com)
>>
>> I need a copy for browsing. My CD was copied from the text holdings of
>> Trinity College Dublin Library Collection. PRONI has the text copy,
>> Trinity
>> College Dublin has the text and the Cathedral has the text.
>>
>> I am pleasantly surprised that there are so many old, out of print and
>> out
>> of copyright references
>>
>>>
>>
>> I have a CD of Derry Cathedral Register. AD1642-1703, 34.67MB
>> by Parish Register Society, that someone gave me.
>>
>> Includes:
>> Register
>> Index Persons
>> Index Parishes
>> Index Places
>> etc.
>>
>> _http://www.archivecdbooks.ie/cgi-bin/sh000002.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2
>>
>> earchivecdbooks%2eie%2facatalog%2fsearch%2ehtml&WD=derry%20cathedral&PN=Derr
>>
>> y_Londonderry%2ehtml%23a2_21IET0068#a2_21IET0068_
>> (http://www.archivecdbooks.ie/cgi-bin/sh000002.pl?REFPAGE=http://www.archive
>>
>> cdbooks.ie/acatalog/search
>> .html&WD=derry%20cathedral&PN=Derry_Londonderry.html#a2_21IET0068#a2_21IET00
>>
>> 68)
>>
>> Did you want me to look anything up ?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Shirley Walsh
>> South Australia
>>
>> **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
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