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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2009-01 > 1231215141


From: "Cliff. Johnston" <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:12:21 -0600
References: <bc3.3f086780.36943396@aol.com>


OK, that's FTDNA for short...

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster


> It's called familytreedna.com.
>
> Bonnie
>
>
> In a message dated 1/5/2009 8:48:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> Bonnie,
>
> I've made a spreadsheet for our Johnstons in Poldean, I haplogroup -
> Danish
> Vikings in Scotland. I can take a look at your I haplogroup, but I don't
> know just what I'll be able to tell you. It would be interesting to see
> how
> close you are to us. I could also compare yours to the other Viking
> Y-DNA
> tests that I have access to.
>
> There are 2 easy ways to let me have a look at the test results. One is
> to
> just send me the Kit # and Password to me via my personal email if you
> used
> FTDNA. The other is to do a cut-and-paste from the FTDNA site or
> wherever
> you have the results.
>
> Cliff.
> "May the best you've ever seen,
> Be the worst you'll ever see;"
> from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 9:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
>
>
>>I already know the haplogroup. They have already been tested, and I have
>>the
>> results. If you want me to send it to you, I'll need an email address.
>>
>> Bonnie
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/5/2009 8:28:12 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
>> writes:
>>
>> I just finished looking through 8 pages of DNA lists on RootsWeb.
>> There
>> are
>>
>> lists for various surnames and then there are lists for the individual
>> haplogroups.
>>
>> At this point I'd suggest that you have the Y-DNA tested, find out what
>> haplogroup you're dealing with and then go join the appropriate
>> list(s).
>>
>> With the little information that you've supplied, this is the best that
>> I
>> can do.
>>
>> Good hunting,
>>
>> Cliff.
>> "May the best you've ever seen,
>> Be the worst you'll ever see;"
>> from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 5:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
>>
>>
>>> Where is the Y DNA site? Thanks!
>>>
>>> Bonnie O'Neil
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/5/2009 4:32:11 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> Have you had the Y-DNA tested?
>>>
>>> If so, you need to go over to the Y-DNA site and ask there. If the
>> Y-DNA
>>> is
>>> of Viking ancestry then Dr. Ken Nordtvedt will probably volunteer
>>> some
>>> assistance (he's considered to be the foremost authority on the I
>>> haplogroup. If the Y-DNA is Celtic or something else then perhaps
>>> someone
>>> else can assist.
>>>
>>> Cliff. Johnston
>>> "May the best you've ever seen,
>>> Be the worst you'll ever see;"
>>> from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <>
>>> To: <>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 4:09 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
>>>
>>>
>>>> Linda,
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if you have a male pattern DNA sample if you can
>>>> tell
>>>> if
>>>> that DNA is Irish, Scotch, etc. I have belonged to the Coil
>>>> Connections
>>>> for a
>>>> long time. We have the DNA of my ancestor, but everyone is not
>>>> totally
>>>> in
>>>> agreement as to where he originated. He did live in a Scotch-Irish
>>>> settlement in
>>>> Virginia in the 1700's. The leader of this group says that does not
>>>> prove
>>>> that
>>>> they were Scots-Irish, though. Valentine Coile originally spelled
>>>> his
>>>> name
>>>> Coyle. Then changed it to Coile, and from there it went to Coil.
>>>> Valentine's
>>>> son, Gabriel, married a Skidmore. Some people in the group think he
>>>> may
>>>> have
>>>> been German, Dutch, Swiss. The rest of the brother's did marry
>>>> German
>>>> women. I
>>>> don't know about you, but I never heard of a German with the last
>>>> name
>>>> of
>>>> Coil! If you can shed any light on this subject, I would appreciate
>>>> it!
>>>>
>>>> Bonnie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 1/5/2009 1:46:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard
>>>> Time,
>>>> writes:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Don,
>>>>
>>>> One of the unfortunate consequences of populist, historical
>>>> renditions
>>>> is
>>>> that we cannot use it to do genealogy because our families are
>>>> different
>>>> from
>>>> the populist historical rendition. The one I'm referring to is the
>>>> "Ulster
>>>> Scots" myth. Actually, if you read any history of the Ulster
>>>> plantations,
>>>> you'll
>>>> learn there were plenty of other people there: lots of English, for
>>>> example.
>>>> There was also a 'lost' Welsh colony in the late 1500s in the
>>>> Belfast
>>>> area
>>>> whose surnames do survive (I learned this reading a history of
>>>> Ulster!
>>>> Imagine
>>>> that!!), lots of Germans, French, Dutch, yadda yadda. Furthermore
>>>> there
>>>> were
>>>> Protestants of many types all over Ireland, including.... Irish
>>>> people!
>>>> There were colonies of Germans right there in Ulster. Not to
>>>> mention
>>>> lots
>>>> of
>>>> Irish people.
>>>>
>>>> The Protestants tended to prefer to believe that their ancestors
>>>> were
>>>> not
>>>> Irish, due to sectarianism and, well, just plain ignorance. Our
>>>> ancestors
>>>> didn't have any training in family history. Their memories were
>>>> faulty.
>>>> They had
>>>> fantasies, just like us. So "Scots' is a tag for "Proddy". Your
>>>> ancestor
>>>> was
>>>> trying to distinguish himself from the Irish. Many Ulster
>>>> Protestants
>>>> were of
>>>> Irish origins. The DNA proves it -- and so does a check of the
>>>> surnames.
>>>> Among my Covenantor ancestors there were many Irish and possibly
>>>> Irish
>>>> su
>>>> rnames.
>>>> They tell me right where they came from --the north coast. I
>>>> suspect
>>>> they
>>>> didn't even realize that some of their surnames were Irish.
>>>>
>>>> Your surname is rare, not Scots (though nothing kept your
>>>> ancestors
>>>> nailed
>>>> down in a parish somewhere's in Europe. Most of the 'well known'
>>>> Scotss
>>>> surnames are the results of Norman knights invited to Scotland by
>>>> the
>>>> king in the
>>>> Middle Ages -- though this was BS -- Before Surnames so not too
>>>> relevant
>>>> <grin>).
>>>>
>>>> If you check IGI you'll see right away where it probably came from.
>>>> The
>>>> pattern is rather distinctively that of an English family. You'll
>>>> see
>>>> it
>>>> in
>>>> counties in Northern Ireland planted by the English. Not
>>>> surprisingly,
>>>> they still
>>>> got a lot of English surnames there. You also see it in coastal
>>>> locations.
>>>> This suggests to me that either they were a merchant family that
>>>> set
>>>> down
>>>> branches in coastal towns, and/or there was a couple sets of English
>>>> families.
>>>> These could have come with the Normans or any time later on.
>>>> Elizabethan
>>>> times
>>>> (several plantations of English), Cromwell settled his whole army
>>>> in
>>>> Ireland.
>>>> Anyway lots of English surnames in Ireland, some were translated
>>>> into
>>>> Irish
>>>> as people assimilated into the Irish nation. The place names are
>>>> not
>>>> too
>>>> hard
>>>> to spot this way as the Irish didn't use placenames while the
>>>> English
>>>> did.
>>>>
>>>> As you say you have never found the surname in Ireland -- I wonder
>>>> why
>>>> not?
>>>> It's in IGI. The good news is this probably means if you studied
>>>> Irish
>>>> genealogy a little, you could make lots of progress because not
>>>> much
>>>> has
>>>> been done.
>>>> You could still have spent 70 years banging your head against the
>>>> wall,
>>>> but
>>>> until very recently it was almost impossible to get your hands on
>>>> the
>>>> materials needed to do Irish research in the 1700s, even in
>>>> Ireland.
>>>> Now,
>>>> its best
>>>> to go to Salt Lake. The material is all in one spot, the hours are
>>>> long,
>>>> they
>>>> are friendly towards family historians. If you go to Ireland,
>>>> you'll
>>> have
>>>> to
>>>> visit multiple repositories in England, Scotland, Ireland, etc, and
>>>> most
>>>> will
>>>> have poor hours. There are good researchers in Salt Lake who can
>>>> assist.
>>>> It
>>>> took several years of seminars at the British Isles Family History
>>>> Society
>>>> before I could do anything at all.
>>>>
>>>> It's very good that you have a rare surname to trace. That means
>>>> almost
>>>> anything you find you'd better pay close attention to. Alas, my
>>>> surnames
>>>> are very
>>>> common. You also need to work up a profile of the family -- were
>>>> they
>>>> merchants? Did they make hats (like Dan'l Boone)? Etc. This will
>>>> suggest
>>>> sources to
>>>> check in Ireland.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, there's also the chance that an Irish family anglicized the
>>>> surname
>>>> to this English name. Generally you can discover that quite easily.
>> Get
>>>> a
>>>> DNA
>>>> test, and flush out some people that you think y ou should be
>>>> related
>>>> to.
>>>> Test them. That's the problem with Ireland: ANY surname could have
>>>> been
>>>> adopted
>>>> by an Irishman, so if you rely on surnames to do your family
>>>> history
>>>> you
>>>> might be wrong. Today these kind of surname adoptions can be
>>>> detected.
>>>>
>>>> Linda Merle
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Don" <>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 12:51:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
>>>> Eastern
>>>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
>>>>
>>>> Sara - Would you be willing to look for the name "Trindle or
>>>> variation
>>>> of
>>>> the name" in your new book? My ggg+grandfather left N Ireland
>>>> sometime
>>>> around 1720, arrived Philadelphia as indentured person. Eventually
>>>> married
>>>> and removed abt 1740 to what is now Mechanicsburg PA. About all I
>>>> know
>>>> of
>>>> his origin is that he claimed to be a "Scotchman from Ireland".
>>>> Have
>>>> never
>>>> found the Trindle name either in Scotland or Ireland, but most
>>>> likely
>>>> the
>>>> spelling wouldn't have been the same.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Don Woodley
>>>>
>>>> RAOGK for Bremer, Butler, Floyd and Franklin Counties in Iowa.
>>>> Researching Woodley, Butler, Ayers, Trindle, Cornford, Relf,
>>>> Lingenfelter
>>>> and others as time permits.
>>>>
>>>>
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