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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2009-01 > 1231199091

Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:44:51 EST

Where is the Y DNA site? Thanks!

Bonnie O'Neil

In a message dated 1/5/2009 4:32:11 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,

Have you had the Y-DNA tested?

If so, you need to go over to the Y-DNA site and ask there. If the Y-DNA is
of Viking ancestry then Dr. Ken Nordtvedt will probably volunteer some
assistance (he's considered to be the foremost authority on the I
haplogroup. If the Y-DNA is Celtic or something else then perhaps someone
else can assist.

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster

> Linda,
> I was wondering if you have a male pattern DNA sample if you can tell if
> that DNA is Irish, Scotch, etc. I have belonged to the Coil Connections
> for a
> long time. We have the DNA of my ancestor, but everyone is not totally in
> agreement as to where he originated. He did live in a Scotch-Irish
> settlement in
> Virginia in the 1700's. The leader of this group says that does not prove
> that
> they were Scots-Irish, though. Valentine Coile originally spelled his name
> Coyle. Then changed it to Coile, and from there it went to Coil.
> Valentine's
> son, Gabriel, married a Skidmore. Some people in the group think he may
> have
> been German, Dutch, Swiss. The rest of the brother's did marry German
> women. I
> don't know about you, but I never heard of a German with the last name of
> Coil! If you can shed any light on this subject, I would appreciate it!
> Bonnie
> In a message dated 1/5/2009 1:46:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> writes:
> Hi Don,
> One of the unfortunate consequences of populist, historical renditions is
> that we cannot use it to do genealogy because our families are different
> from
> the populist historical rendition. The one I'm referring to is the
> "Ulster
> Scots" myth. Actually, if you read any history of the Ulster plantations,
> you'll
> learn there were plenty of other people there: lots of English, for
> example.
> There was also a 'lost' Welsh colony in the late 1500s in the Belfast
> area
> whose surnames do survive (I learned this reading a history of Ulster!
> Imagine
> that!!), lots of Germans, French, Dutch, yadda yadda. Furthermore there
> were
> Protestants of many types all over Ireland, including.... Irish people!
> There were colonies of Germans right there in Ulster. Not to mention lots
> of
> Irish people.
> The Protestants tended to prefer to believe that their ancestors were not
> Irish, due to sectarianism and, well, just plain ignorance. Our ancestors
> didn't have any training in family history. Their memories were faulty.
> They had
> fantasies, just like us. So "Scots' is a tag for "Proddy". Your ancestor
> was
> trying to distinguish himself from the Irish. Many Ulster Protestants
> were of
> Irish origins. The DNA proves it -- and so does a check of the surnames.
> Among my Covenantor ancestors there were many Irish and possibly Irish su
> rnames.
> They tell me right where they came from --the north coast. I suspect they
> didn't even realize that some of their surnames were Irish.
> Your surname is rare, not Scots (though nothing kept your ancestors
> nailed
> down in a parish somewhere's in Europe. Most of the 'well known' Scotss
> surnames are the results of Norman knights invited to Scotland by the
> king in the
> Middle Ages -- though this was BS -- Before Surnames so not too relevant
> <grin>).
> If you check IGI you'll see right away where it probably came from. The
> pattern is rather distinctively that of an English family. You'll see it
> in
> counties in Northern Ireland planted by the English. Not surprisingly,
> they still
> got a lot of English surnames there. You also see it in coastal
> locations.
> This suggests to me that either they were a merchant family that set down
> branches in coastal towns, and/or there was a couple sets of English
> families.
> These could have come with the Normans or any time later on. Elizabethan
> times
> (several plantations of English), Cromwell settled his whole army in
> Ireland.
> Anyway lots of English surnames in Ireland, some were translated into
> Irish
> as people assimilated into the Irish nation. The place names are not too
> hard
> to spot this way as the Irish didn't use placenames while the English
> did.
> As you say you have never found the surname in Ireland -- I wonder why
> not?
> It's in IGI. The good news is this probably means if you studied Irish
> genealogy a little, you could make lots of progress because not much has
> been done.
> You could still have spent 70 years banging your head against the wall,
> but
> until very recently it was almost impossible to get your hands on the
> materials needed to do Irish research in the 1700s, even in Ireland. Now,
> its best
> to go to Salt Lake. The material is all in one spot, the hours are long,
> they
> are friendly towards family historians. If you go to Ireland, you'll
> to
> visit multiple repositories in England, Scotland, Ireland, etc, and most
> will
> have poor hours. There are good researchers in Salt Lake who can assist.
> It
> took several years of seminars at the British Isles Family History
> Society
> before I could do anything at all.
> It's very good that you have a rare surname to trace. That means almost
> anything you find you'd better pay close attention to. Alas, my surnames
> are very
> common. You also need to work up a profile of the family -- were they
> merchants? Did they make hats (like Dan'l Boone)? Etc. This will suggest
> sources to
> check in Ireland.
> Anyway, there's also the chance that an Irish family anglicized the
> surname
> to this English name. Generally you can discover that quite easily. Get a
> test, and flush out some people that you think y ou should be related to.
> Test them. That's the problem with Ireland: ANY surname could have been
> adopted
> by an Irishman, so if you rely on surnames to do your family history you
> might be wrong. Today these kind of surname adoptions can be detected.
> Linda Merle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don" <>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 12:51:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
> Sara - Would you be willing to look for the name "Trindle or variation of
> the name" in your new book? My ggg+grandfather left N Ireland sometime
> around 1720, arrived Philadelphia as indentured person. Eventually
> married
> and removed abt 1740 to what is now Mechanicsburg PA. About all I know of
> his origin is that he claimed to be a "Scotchman from Ireland". Have
> never
> found the Trindle name either in Scotland or Ireland, but most likely the
> spelling wouldn't have been the same.
> Thanks,
> Don Woodley
> RAOGK for Bremer, Butler, Floyd and Franklin Counties in Iowa.
> Researching Woodley, Butler, Ayers, Trindle, Cornford, Relf, Lingenfelter
> and others as time permits.
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