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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2009-01 > 1231199019


From:
Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:43:39 EST


I believe the DNA of my Coil ancestor is R1B1. I do have a copy of the exact
results. Another ancestor is of the Viking group. His name is James
Garrison. His DNA is I1. The consensus on him is that he was from Northern Scotland.
Valentine Coil is where we seem to run into the proverbial brick wall.

Bonnie O'Neil



In a message dated 1/5/2009 4:32:11 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
writes:

Have you had the Y-DNA tested?

If so, you need to go over to the Y-DNA site and ask there. If the Y-DNA is
of Viking ancestry then Dr. Ken Nordtvedt will probably volunteer some
assistance (he's considered to be the foremost authority on the I
haplogroup. If the Y-DNA is Celtic or something else then perhaps someone
else can assist.

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster


> Linda,
>
> I was wondering if you have a male pattern DNA sample if you can tell if
> that DNA is Irish, Scotch, etc. I have belonged to the Coil Connections
> for a
> long time. We have the DNA of my ancestor, but everyone is not totally in
> agreement as to where he originated. He did live in a Scotch-Irish
> settlement in
> Virginia in the 1700's. The leader of this group says that does not prove
> that
> they were Scots-Irish, though. Valentine Coile originally spelled his name
> Coyle. Then changed it to Coile, and from there it went to Coil.
> Valentine's
> son, Gabriel, married a Skidmore. Some people in the group think he may
> have
> been German, Dutch, Swiss. The rest of the brother's did marry German
> women. I
> don't know about you, but I never heard of a German with the last name of
> Coil! If you can shed any light on this subject, I would appreciate it!
>
> Bonnie
>
>
> In a message dated 1/5/2009 1:46:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> Hi Don,
>
> One of the unfortunate consequences of populist, historical renditions is
> that we cannot use it to do genealogy because our families are different
> from
> the populist historical rendition. The one I'm referring to is the
> "Ulster
> Scots" myth. Actually, if you read any history of the Ulster plantations,
> you'll
> learn there were plenty of other people there: lots of English, for
> example.
> There was also a 'lost' Welsh colony in the late 1500s in the Belfast
> area
> whose surnames do survive (I learned this reading a history of Ulster!
> Imagine
> that!!), lots of Germans, French, Dutch, yadda yadda. Furthermore there
> were
> Protestants of many types all over Ireland, including.... Irish people!
> There were colonies of Germans right there in Ulster. Not to mention lots
> of
> Irish people.
>
> The Protestants tended to prefer to believe that their ancestors were not
> Irish, due to sectarianism and, well, just plain ignorance. Our ancestors
> didn't have any training in family history. Their memories were faulty.
> They had
> fantasies, just like us. So "Scots' is a tag for "Proddy". Your ancestor
> was
> trying to distinguish himself from the Irish. Many Ulster Protestants
> were of
> Irish origins. The DNA proves it -- and so does a check of the surnames.
> Among my Covenantor ancestors there were many Irish and possibly Irish su
> rnames.
> They tell me right where they came from --the north coast. I suspect they
> didn't even realize that some of their surnames were Irish.
>
> Your surname is rare, not Scots (though nothing kept your ancestors
> nailed
> down in a parish somewhere's in Europe. Most of the 'well known' Scotss
> surnames are the results of Norman knights invited to Scotland by the
> king in the
> Middle Ages -- though this was BS -- Before Surnames so not too relevant
> <grin>).
>
> If you check IGI you'll see right away where it probably came from. The
> pattern is rather distinctively that of an English family. You'll see it
> in
> counties in Northern Ireland planted by the English. Not surprisingly,
> they still
> got a lot of English surnames there. You also see it in coastal
> locations.
> This suggests to me that either they were a merchant family that set down
> branches in coastal towns, and/or there was a couple sets of English
> families.
> These could have come with the Normans or any time later on. Elizabethan
> times
> (several plantations of English), Cromwell settled his whole army in
> Ireland.
> Anyway lots of English surnames in Ireland, some were translated into
> Irish
> as people assimilated into the Irish nation. The place names are not too
> hard
> to spot this way as the Irish didn't use placenames while the English
> did.
>
> As you say you have never found the surname in Ireland -- I wonder why
> not?
> It's in IGI. The good news is this probably means if you studied Irish
> genealogy a little, you could make lots of progress because not much has
> been done.
> You could still have spent 70 years banging your head against the wall,
> but
> until very recently it was almost impossible to get your hands on the
> materials needed to do Irish research in the 1700s, even in Ireland. Now,
> its best
> to go to Salt Lake. The material is all in one spot, the hours are long,
> they
> are friendly towards family historians. If you go to Ireland, you'll
have
> to
> visit multiple repositories in England, Scotland, Ireland, etc, and most
> will
> have poor hours. There are good researchers in Salt Lake who can assist.
> It
> took several years of seminars at the British Isles Family History
> Society
> before I could do anything at all.
>
> It's very good that you have a rare surname to trace. That means almost
> anything you find you'd better pay close attention to. Alas, my surnames
> are very
> common. You also need to work up a profile of the family -- were they
> merchants? Did they make hats (like Dan'l Boone)? Etc. This will suggest
> sources to
> check in Ireland.
>
> Anyway, there's also the chance that an Irish family anglicized the
> surname
> to this English name. Generally you can discover that quite easily. Get a
> DNA
> test, and flush out some people that you think y ou should be related to.
> Test them. That's the problem with Ireland: ANY surname could have been
> adopted
> by an Irishman, so if you rely on surnames to do your family history you
> might be wrong. Today these kind of surname adoptions can be detected.
>
> Linda Merle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don" <>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 12:51:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
>
> Sara - Would you be willing to look for the name "Trindle or variation of
> the name" in your new book? My ggg+grandfather left N Ireland sometime
> around 1720, arrived Philadelphia as indentured person. Eventually
> married
> and removed abt 1740 to what is now Mechanicsburg PA. About all I know of
> his origin is that he claimed to be a "Scotchman from Ireland". Have
> never
> found the Trindle name either in Scotland or Ireland, but most likely the
> spelling wouldn't have been the same.
>
> Thanks,
> Don Woodley
>
> RAOGK for Bremer, Butler, Floyd and Franklin Counties in Iowa.
> Researching Woodley, Butler, Ayers, Trindle, Cornford, Relf, Lingenfelter
> and others as time permits.
>
>
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