Scotch-Irish-L Archives
Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2009-01 > 1231193395
From:
Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:09:55 EST
Linda,
I was wondering if you have a male pattern DNA sample if you can tell if
that DNA is Irish, Scotch, etc. I have belonged to the Coil Connections for a
long time. We have the DNA of my ancestor, but everyone is not totally in
agreement as to where he originated. He did live in a Scotch-Irish settlement in
Virginia in the 1700's. The leader of this group says that does not prove that
they were Scots-Irish, though. Valentine Coile originally spelled his name
Coyle. Then changed it to Coile, and from there it went to Coil. Valentine's
son, Gabriel, married a Skidmore. Some people in the group think he may have
been German, Dutch, Swiss. The rest of the brother's did marry German women. I
don't know about you, but I never heard of a German with the last name of
Coil! If you can shed any light on this subject, I would appreciate it!
Bonnie
In a message dated 1/5/2009 1:46:30 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
writes:
Hi Don,
One of the unfortunate consequences of populist, historical renditions is
that we cannot use it to do genealogy because our families are different from
the populist historical rendition. The one I'm referring to is the "Ulster
Scots" myth. Actually, if you read any history of the Ulster plantations, you'll
learn there were plenty of other people there: lots of English, for example.
There was also a 'lost' Welsh colony in the late 1500s in the Belfast area
whose surnames do survive (I learned this reading a history of Ulster! Imagine
that!!), lots of Germans, French, Dutch, yadda yadda. Furthermore there were
Protestants of many types all over Ireland, including.... Irish people!
There were colonies of Germans right there in Ulster. Not to mention lots of
Irish people.
The Protestants tended to prefer to believe that their ancestors were not
Irish, due to sectarianism and, well, just plain ignorance. Our ancestors
didn't have any training in family history. Their memories were faulty. They had
fantasies, just like us. So "Scots' is a tag for "Proddy". Your ancestor was
trying to distinguish himself from the Irish. Many Ulster Protestants were of
Irish origins. The DNA proves it -- and so does a check of the surnames.
Among my Covenantor ancestors there were many Irish and possibly Irish su rnames.
They tell me right where they came from --the north coast. I suspect they
didn't even realize that some of their surnames were Irish.
Your surname is rare, not Scots (though nothing kept your ancestors nailed
down in a parish somewhere's in Europe. Most of the 'well known' Scotss
surnames are the results of Norman knights invited to Scotland by the king in the
Middle Ages -- though this was BS -- Before Surnames so not too relevant
<grin>).
If you check IGI you'll see right away where it probably came from. The
pattern is rather distinctively that of an English family. You'll see it in
counties in Northern Ireland planted by the English. Not surprisingly, they still
got a lot of English surnames there. You also see it in coastal locations.
This suggests to me that either they were a merchant family that set down
branches in coastal towns, and/or there was a couple sets of English families.
These could have come with the Normans or any time later on. Elizabethan times
(several plantations of English), Cromwell settled his whole army in Ireland.
Anyway lots of English surnames in Ireland, some were translated into Irish
as people assimilated into the Irish nation. The place names are not too hard
to spot this way as the Irish didn't use placenames while the English did.
As you say you have never found the surname in Ireland -- I wonder why not?
It's in IGI. The good news is this probably means if you studied Irish
genealogy a little, you could make lots of progress because not much has been done.
You could still have spent 70 years banging your head against the wall, but
until very recently it was almost impossible to get your hands on the
materials needed to do Irish research in the 1700s, even in Ireland. Now, its best
to go to Salt Lake. The material is all in one spot, the hours are long, they
are friendly towards family historians. If you go to Ireland, you'll have to
visit multiple repositories in England, Scotland, Ireland, etc, and most will
have poor hours. There are good researchers in Salt Lake who can assist. It
took several years of seminars at the British Isles Family History Society
before I could do anything at all.
It's very good that you have a rare surname to trace. That means almost
anything you find you'd better pay close attention to. Alas, my surnames are very
common. You also need to work up a profile of the family -- were they
merchants? Did they make hats (like Dan'l Boone)? Etc. This will suggest sources to
check in Ireland.
Anyway, there's also the chance that an Irish family anglicized the surname
to this English name. Generally you can discover that quite easily. Get a DNA
test, and flush out some people that you think y ou should be related to.
Test them. That's the problem with Ireland: ANY surname could have been adopted
by an Irishman, so if you rely on surnames to do your family history you
might be wrong. Today these kind of surname adoptions can be detected.
Linda Merle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 12:51:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [S-I] Scots in Ulster
Sara - Would you be willing to look for the name "Trindle or variation of
the name" in your new book? My ggg+grandfather left N Ireland sometime
around 1720, arrived Philadelphia as indentured person. Eventually married
and removed abt 1740 to what is now Mechanicsburg PA. About all I know of
his origin is that he claimed to be a "Scotchman from Ireland". Have never
found the Trindle name either in Scotland or Ireland, but most likely the
spelling wouldn't have been the same.
Thanks,
Don Woodley
RAOGK for Bremer, Butler, Floyd and Franklin Counties in Iowa.
Researching Woodley, Butler, Ayers, Trindle, Cornford, Relf, Lingenfelter
and others as time permits.
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