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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2008-11 > 1226258837


From:
Subject: Re: [S-I] Ellots and Armstrongs
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:27:17 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <19C6EB1297D747EAB6B5B657344D81BD@ValuedCustomer>


Hi John, yup, I know how it works. I admin a small project myself that has successfully located the Ulster homeland of an American colonial family. (People here no doubt are very tired of hearing about them.).

I'm a member of a number of projects associated with my father. However none of the admins is as helpful as the admins of the Ulster Heritage DNA project or even the admin of the Mulvihill/Mulvill/Melville family project (largely Clare, Limerick, Kerry, etc). The Irish are ahead of the ball on this one!

I am also a member of various DNA lists (where I do not understand much and what I do understand changes!). Also had my Mdna tested at Sorensons (J2 -- out of Germany) and we're pending results on my dad's Mito for his mum, a Dalrymple from Polmont, Stirling.

Yep, there's regional projects -- every possible kind, including county projects in England. However the Northeast is reknown for being 'difficult'. I founded a Borders genealogy list many many years ago but found the members to be so difficult that in the interests of my health, I guiltily enlisted a naive person to take it over. Seriously.....our Irish genes have mellowed us out and we're no match for them pure bred border people any more!!

There are also surname projects. The Mason Worldwide has been good, but the only Mason we remotely match changed his name to Mason after immigrating from Germany <grin>. I actually hope to locate missing cousins in Australia, etc. We know our grandmother wrote to them, but we lost contact. And even my grandfather's siblings, in the USA. Lost. One brother committed suicide in 1929 (part owner of a local coalmine). His sons are missing. I traced some to California. I would love to find them before my dad passes on (he's 86), but if we don't, at least we got the DNA to prove the connection, if all else fails.

Some of the border tribes were Catholic. The borders were one of the strong holds of both English and Scots Catholicism. Many of the old houses there have secret priest's rooms where they hid the priest. My info about the preponderance of Presbyterianism way up in the Pennines (where Weardale is -- in the highest parish in England) is from an old book published in 1830 that is free on the web. I'll find it and send you the URL.

My mother (Ulster Scots and Irish) has Beatties from Ayreshire who settled in Antrim in the 1600s, leaving for the USA in 1729, as well as various border surnames like Hall (m. a Beattie, of course), but my father's ancestors were in England and Scotland till the late 1800s. He's got Beatties too, but his headed up the eastern coast of Scotland in the 1700s and settled in Polmont by 1830. The English side includes now Armstrongs, Chisholms, Watsons (very strong in Weardale), Gardner, Irvine (Irwin), Richardsons (strong in Weardale), Potts (Lancaster surname). No Elliot yet. Some of these surnames are not associated with the border reivers but are very numerous in the dales.

My Masons were not religious people, though their wives tended to turn Methodist (perhaps due to being married to them <grin>). My grandfather, when asked about church, laughed. He of course was married to a very very religious Scots Presbyterian. I recall my grandmother analyzing whether, after we began to send men in to space, if it was a sin to orbit the earth on a Sunday. (Jury still out........). The Masons were lead miners in Weardale and then became coalminers when moving down the Wear River Valley. They did not ever leave the Wear River Valley till they came to America. My grandfather was a very strong union man all his life.

Linda Merle

----- Original Message -----
From: John Armstrong
To:
Sent: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:58:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [S-I] Ellots and Armstrongs

> I always say we all have our Johnnie Armstrong -- and I have found mine: a
> blacksmith in Northumberland who moved to Hetton le Hole in Durham in the
> early 1800s. However the admins of the DNA project either died or are a
> particularly grumpy and uncommunicative lot. I can't recommend joining
> them. I may unjoin them very shortly.
>

Linda,
Assuming you are in the DNA study at Family Tree DNA, are you aware you can
co-join any number of other Studies through FTDNA?? (at no additional cost)
If your unhappy with the Surname project you might consider one or more
Regional Studies.. I don't have the specific titles at my finger tips but
I know there are DNA studies for Scotland as well as Ireland...


At the moment I cannot put my fat fingers on the exact book where this quote
originates, but the event as reported states that a person visiting the
Debatable Lands asked a local if there were not any Christians in the area.
The reply was "No, We're all Armstrong's and Elliot's around here" (words
to that effect) ...

In a Biography that a Great Uncle wrote about his Father, he states,
speaking of ancestors, "they lived on the Borders of Scotland all dyed in
the wool Presbyterians". and then speaking of the same ancestors, "the
rock-ribbed Scotch presbyterians took possession of the farmstead in Ulster
with 99 year leases"

I don't understand the term Rock-Ribbed... I always thought it was perhaps
another way of saying they were a bit stubborn...?????

Regards
John Armstrong

---- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [S-I] Ellots and Armstrongs


> Hi folks,
>
> There's a number of good websites on the border reivers:
> http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/
>
> Some names,etc, here too: http://www.nwlink.com/~scotlass/border.htm
>
> books.google.com has a free book:
> Border Raids and Reivers By Robert BorlandMy dad's paternal ancestors are
> from the northeast of England, WAY up in the mountains in a parish that
> until after 1800 had no Church of England, but for a nominal presence. The
> people were Presbyterian, apparently served by a minister who crossed over
> the mountains from Lancaster, which apparently had its share of
> Presbyterians too. Our surname is occupational, Mason. My father is some
> flavor of R1b1, with not even a 37 marker match, though at the lower
> numbers, he matches many of the locals. I had hoped to learn what clan
> he'd originally been. There is a Border DNA project. It shows what people
> have long suspected: these folk are not related to others with the same
> 'surname'.
>
> I always say we all have our Johnnie Armstrong -- and I have found mine: a
> blacksmith in Northumberland who moved to Hetton le Hole in Durham in the
> early 1800s. However the admins of the DNA project either died or are a
> particularly grumpy and uncommunicative lot. I can't recommend joining
> them. I may unjoin them very shortly.
>
> It's a terrible place to search for people. No records. Most of the
> churches were burned repeatedly. Most churches were not really functioning
> as parish churches, frankly. On either side of the border. It was a wild
> place with no patience for religion. It was 'burnt over' by the
> Methodists in the 1700s, almost entirely, but they didn't keep such good
> records either.
>
> Here's other old books at google books:
> Condition of the Border at the Union By John GrahamThe Lands of Scott By
> James Frothingham Hunnewell -- includes description of the Durham
> Cathedral, possibly the nicest Norman cathedral in Europe (much visited by
> Europeans but Americans never heard of the place). It includes the grave
> of the Venerable Bede from I think it is the 7th century. Amazing -- the
> coffin still survives. I really liked the place though possibly I am the
> first family member to be let in!
>
> Bye.....
>
> Linda Merle
>
>
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