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Subject: Re: [S-I] I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-...
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:43:30 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <>

Hi Marlene, fortunately, the governments in the past were too busy with other issues to pass laws on what the name of our ethnic group is. Most scholars (though not all) are gentlemen and ladies and rarely pummel anyone about it. That doesn't apply to the rest of us. I've been abused for 'misuse' of the term. I fear the next time that happens I will do some pummeling of my own........

Anyway, the Scotch Irish Society of America is a scholarly organization whose scholars have researched the situation thoroughly and published their research. Anyone can read their journal or submit additional research: .

I've spent many a dreary day reading old Scottish parish records in which the ancestors of today's Scots purists call themselves "Scotch". It's a neolism. The issue gives our enemies much cause for howling laughter. So much real stuff to fight about in this world and we fight about this? What idiots. We all can call ourselves whatever we like, but we must refrain from abusing or bullying others over it.

However the corruption is the other way as Scotch was definitely used for people in America in the 1700s (if I recall correctly), by Queen Lizzie in the 1500s, proceeded by #$#$#$%%!!! and refering to Catholic highlanders (not the ancestors of lowland Scots who would one day settle there after she was dead), and as I said, in the parish records of lowland Scotland.

But as long as nothing too offensive preceeds the Scotch or Scots, I try to not take offense, myself. It was and is a free country but if you really anger me, I invoke a mean Irish fairy curse. My mother once cursed a guy with four flat tires and he had them all on the way home. No one messes with us twice......and it's neither the Scot or Scotch in us you best should fear.

This topic comes up periodically on this list and is much dreaded as there is hardly ever anything intelligent said about it, just my grandma this and that and a few lecturings by self appointed purity police.

God bless the Irish -- at least they fight over real issues....not a couple letters. Really, is there another ethnic group this idiotic on the entire planet? It's embarrassing.. People laugh, you know. Especially the Irish.

Help! We need a thread on religion or politics, fast......just joking!

Linda Merle (SI Admin)
----- Original Message -----
From: Marlene Creech
Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:48:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [S-I] I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-...

I could be wrong in this, [usually] but my mother's ancestors were
among those who called them Scotch-Irish. It always
bothered me because it is obviously Scots-Irish. I just don't think
they knew the right term. The word could have been used as
saying that they were Scots, but somehow became corrupted into Scotch.
{I don't know if they had that drink there or not, if so
perhaps that would be the reason] ha ha.
On Nov 8, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Edward Andrews wrote:

> Sorry to be picky Linda was in not 1760 that you had the Methodists
> leaving
> Ulster?
> Wesley didn't visit Ireland until 1747, and he was only born in 1703
> Edward
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [mailto:scotch-irish-
>> ] On Behalf Of
>> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 6:31 PM
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [S-I] I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the
>> Scot-...
>> Hi Jeanne,
>> Canada's a different set of places from the United States. I believe
>> there
>> is an Ulster Scots email list that focuses on them (I'm not chasing
>> you
>> off).
>> However I suggest you think about what brings you to call them "Scotch
>> Irish". Usually that term only makes sense in parts of the USA. Ie,
>> before they could create an American ethnic group, Irish Protestants
>> settling in New England either moved or were assimilated in "Yankee".
>> There were not enough of them to pass their culture on intact. Areas
>> where
>> there was upwards towards 95% settlers from Ulster -- they did pass on
>> their culture and became known in America as "Scotch Irish". But
>> usually
>> you don't see the term applied in Canada. I'll explain why. In the
>> USA it
>> tends to mean an Appalachian area person of supposed Ulster origins.
>> At the time that the bulk of the Irish Protestants from Ulster who
>> believed their ancestors were Scottish came to the New World, there
>> was
>> not much settlement in Canada. It came later.
>> Although most Irish Protestants in the lower, rebel colonies were (or
>> later claimed to be) with George Washington, some were not. Most
>> Loyalists
>> had to flee after the Revolution, say 1778-ish and later. Many went to
>> Canada where they were often given land, often together with their old
>> community. Of course then their identity was Loyalist. There were
>> definitely Ulster Scots from the USA among them. However largely,
>> they
>> were Protestant, as largely most people in the lower colonies were
>> Protestants. You had some Catholics in Maryland and Pennsylvania. In
>> PA,
>> some of these, if not most, were Germans -- or Marylanders who
>> wandered
>> northward. Most Maryland Catholics were descendents of upper class
>> English
>> and Scots recusants. A few Irish and Anglo Irish noblemen. But they
>> disliked poor Irish Catholics.
>> Before the Ulster Scots left from Ulster, however, there was another
>> significant emigration of Protestants from Ireland. As early as 1708,
>> Irish Methodists were leaving in droves. Most were NOT in Ulster.
>> Why???
>> The Methodist movement began as a movement within the established
>> church.
>> Except for a few places like Fermanagh which saw a lot of immigration
>> in
>> the early 1600s from the Scots/English borders, most Protestants in
>> Ulster
>> were Presbyterian. There are many tales of the poor vicar having to
>> preach
>> to his wife and cat on Sundays as everyone else was either at the Mass
>> Rock or the local conventicle-field. Ulster was NOT a strong place
>> for
>> Methodists until after they set up separate congregations. It is
>> forgotten, but Ireland had a population of Protestants all over. These
>> were native Irish, English, old English, descendents of Cromwellian
>> soldiers, German, French, Flemish (etc) Protestants settled in
>> Ireland.
>> Etc. These were where you find Methodist congregations. The first
>> Methodists in the USA were Irish Methodists of German descent.
>> For more info see Falley "Irish and Scotch Irish Ancestral
>> History"....
>> Ten years ago or more, people discussed what happened to all these
>> Protestants. They have disappeared. The answer is in. They went to
>> Canada.
>> There they settled with Scots from Scotland. Due to the history of
>> Canada,
>> these various Protestant groups merged, religiously, so to some degree
>> ethnic 'tags' were lost. There is a book written about Irish
>> settlement in
>> Canada. Often we would not bother to read it, thinking it addresses
>> Famine
>> immigrants. Wrong. The book is about Irish Protestants who settled
>> quite
>> early. I know the name is in the archives of this list. Search for
>> Canadian Irish. It showed that most were not Presbyterian but
>> Methodist
>> and did not come from Ulster. However when their daughter married the
>> daughter of a Scots immigrant -- then their children were indeed
>> "Scots
>> Irish", but of course, not Ulster Scots.
>> Slowly they are improving the indexes and access to early Canadian
>> censuses that can assist you in figuring out where they came from.
>> Traditionally land grants are very good as well as obits. However
>> Canada
>> is many places. My experience is in an area north of Toronto; you may
>> need
>> to read some books or find a list with well educated people who know
>> the
>> local history of your specific county and township. My limited
>> experience
>> has been that that is even MORE so than it is in the USA, where it is
>> also
>> true. I was also surprised at the number of people who didn't
>> manifest in
>> the ancestral area after immigrating from the Old World. A surprising
>> number had, in the early 1800s, spent a generation in Canada
>> alrealdy. By
>> 1751 or so you can find censuses that can assist you in locating the
>> ancestor's origins. Except of course for YOUR area . I found
>> some
>> areas had changed jurisdiction so often it was very very difficult to
>> determine where they 'had been'. Here you need local expertise who
>> know,
>> for example, what the name and jurisdiction of "Zone Township" was in
>> 1751. Or maybe it was uninhabited.
>> Again when you drill down into the local history, you can often find
>> record of where most of the inhabitants came from and sometimes even
>> mention of their name and origin. In any case you need to use those
>> censuses to glean all instances of the surname in surrounding areas or
>> larger towns. Ie the man I was looking for moved to the frontier from
>> Toronto after completing an apprenticeship as a blacksmith. He could
>> have
>> just as easily been a young son from one of the nearby Scots
>> settlements
>> who had the same name (Ritchie).
>> The early censuses often asked the family religion, so check those. If
>> they said Methodist and that they were Irish in origin, then they were
>> probably not from Ulster (though they could be). If you share the
>> surname,
>> we can do some lookups for you.
>> If you read this article below, you will see that the authors entirely
>> equate "irish" with "Irish Catholic". There is nothing there about the
>> sizable population of Irish Protestants. Not only did the poor
>> Faminers
>> cause distress to the sensibilities of better off settlers, but the
>> violence long associated with Irish Republicanism resulted in those
>> who
>> could assume a different origin ("Ulster Scots" and "Scotch Irish"
>> signal
>> "We're not one of THEM!") did so. The ones stuck with an Irish
>> moniker,
>> like my Kellys, suffered a lot. Their problem wasn't their religion
>> but
>> the bigotry of the Germans. When my German great grandmother married
>> an
>> Irish Protestant, she was disinherited and her descendents had to
>> enter
>> through the kitchen door thereafter, with the servants.
>> si=0&so=0&sc=7829&sfi=2&
>> st=message&action=compose&paction=view&id=12823&rf=text&op=replyAll
>> There were a number of assisted emmigrations like Peter Robinsons:
>> This article is VERY interesting too:
>> Most of these studies focus on specific communities -- if you
>> identified
>> the surname and the county, maybe someone here would have specific
>> information.
>> This last article gives a great bibliography of these Canadian Irish
>> studies.
>> "The Untold Story: The Irish in Canada. (Toronto,
>> 1988), vol.1, 308-19. North Tipperary and south Leinster Protestants,
>> mostly in Ontario, are the respective focus of Bruce S. Elliott's
>> Irish
>> Migrants in the Canada: A New Approach (Montreal, 1988) and
>> "Emigration
>> from South Leinster to Eastern Upper Canada," Canadian Papers in Rural
>> History, vol.8 (Gananoque, Ont., 1992), 277-305. Elliott further
>> explores
>> Irish settlement in eastern Ontario in his introduction to The McCabe
>> List: Early Irish in the Ottawa Valley (Toronto, 1991), 1-7.
>> Palatines are
>> addressed in Carolyn A. Heald, The Irish Palatines in Ontario:
>> Religion,
>> Ethnicity, and Rural Migration (Gananoque, Ont., 1994), and Catharine
>> A.
>> Wilson's A New Lease on Life (Montreal, 1993) "
>> The book I read was Bruce S. Elliott's Irish Migrants in the Canada:
>> A New
>> Approach (Montreal, 1988) and "Emigration from South Leinster to
>> Eastern
>> Upper Canada. There are SOME details in the archives of this list.
>> But
>> you can see right away how focused on specific areas of Canada these
>> studies are. It is probably fairly correct to say that in general,
>> Canada
>> received, early, fewer DIRECT Ulster immigrants than did the lower
>> colonies and states, but many more Scots and Irish Protestants from
>> areas
>> of Ireland outside of Ulster. For one reason -- these folk were not
>> alienated from the British government like the Ulster Scots. They had
>> no
>> issues with it, so why not go to Canada? (for's
>> colder...and
>> it has more black flies than Massachusetts where I was almost eaten
>> alive
>> one spring, so..... ). Canada required far less of a cultural
>> and
>> political adjustment than the southern colonies/states.
>> Just don't overlook the UEL angle -- but you can quickly tell from
>> land
>> grants if UELs (Americans: United Empire Loyalists) were settled in
>> the
>> district.. But if yours descended from UELs two generations before,
>> it is
>> possible they 'forgot', I suppose.....a lot of essental Loyalist lit
>> is on
>> line at, burnt into on-line CDs. I generally check
>> these
>> for 'lost' Americans. Americans show up in Kentucky after the
>> Revolution
>> with impossible to prove stories or none at all on their origins.
>> Some are
>> or were related to Loyalists, others are escaped indentured servants
>> or
>> even criminals that the British unloaded here before the Revolution.
>> The
>> USA was an early penal colony, esp. the southern coastal colonies.
>> Of course this is not true of any of OUR ancestors . A lot of
>> Marylanders split for Kentucky by 1778. They were Catholics, fearful
>> of
>> the US government. They settled together. A lot of Scots Royalists in
>> that
>> group. They unfortunately chose the one district in Kentucky with
>> really
>> poor soil so they dispersed to avoid starvation, some heading south
>> into
>> north west Tennessee and then west, a generation later, into Missouri
>> and
>> Arkansas. How did I get onto this??
>> Best of luck!
>> Linda Merle
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jeanne Swick
>> To: List -
>> Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:15:09 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: [S-I] I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-...
>> I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-Irish were in Upper
>> Canada. My family seems to have been there in 1822, long before the
>> famine.
>> Thanks
>> JS
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