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From: "Edward Andrews" <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-...
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:30:23 -0000
References: <BAY119-W11DD2D5B23ADB1369BC473ED180@phx.gbl><599134236.265061226169068767.JavaMail.root@sz0106a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <599134236.265061226169068767.JavaMail.root@sz0106a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


Sorry to be picky Linda was in not 1760 that you had the Methodists leaving
Ulster?
Wesley didn't visit Ireland until 1747, and he was only born in 1703
Edward


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:scotch-irish-
> ] On Behalf Of
> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 6:31 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [S-I] I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-...
>
> Hi Jeanne,
>
> Canada's a different set of places from the United States. I believe there
> is an Ulster Scots email list that focuses on them (I'm not chasing you
> off).
>
> However I suggest you think about what brings you to call them "Scotch
> Irish". Usually that term only makes sense in parts of the USA. Ie,
> before they could create an American ethnic group, Irish Protestants
> settling in New England either moved or were assimilated in "Yankee".
> There were not enough of them to pass their culture on intact. Areas where
> there was upwards towards 95% settlers from Ulster -- they did pass on
> their culture and became known in America as "Scotch Irish". But usually
> you don't see the term applied in Canada. I'll explain why. In the USA it
> tends to mean an Appalachian area person of supposed Ulster origins.
>
> At the time that the bulk of the Irish Protestants from Ulster who
> believed their ancestors were Scottish came to the New World, there was
> not much settlement in Canada. It came later.
>
> Although most Irish Protestants in the lower, rebel colonies were (or
> later claimed to be) with George Washington, some were not. Most Loyalists
> had to flee after the Revolution, say 1778-ish and later. Many went to
> Canada where they were often given land, often together with their old
> community. Of course then their identity was Loyalist. There were
> definitely Ulster Scots from the USA among them. However largely, they
> were Protestant, as largely most people in the lower colonies were
> Protestants. You had some Catholics in Maryland and Pennsylvania. In PA,
> some of these, if not most, were Germans -- or Marylanders who wandered
> northward. Most Maryland Catholics were descendents of upper class English
> and Scots recusants. A few Irish and Anglo Irish noblemen. But they
> disliked poor Irish Catholics.
>
> Before the Ulster Scots left from Ulster, however, there was another
> significant emigration of Protestants from Ireland. As early as 1708,
> Irish Methodists were leaving in droves. Most were NOT in Ulster. Why???
> The Methodist movement began as a movement within the established church.
> Except for a few places like Fermanagh which saw a lot of immigration in
> the early 1600s from the Scots/English borders, most Protestants in Ulster
> were Presbyterian. There are many tales of the poor vicar having to preach
> to his wife and cat on Sundays as everyone else was either at the Mass
> Rock or the local conventicle-field. Ulster was NOT a strong place for
> Methodists until after they set up separate congregations. It is
> forgotten, but Ireland had a population of Protestants all over. These
> were native Irish, English, old English, descendents of Cromwellian
> soldiers, German, French, Flemish (etc) Protestants settled in Ireland.
> Etc. These were where you find Methodist congregations. The first
> Methodists in the USA were Irish Methodists of German descent.
>
> For more info see Falley "Irish and Scotch Irish Ancestral History"....
>
> Ten years ago or more, people discussed what happened to all these
> Protestants. They have disappeared. The answer is in. They went to Canada.
> There they settled with Scots from Scotland. Due to the history of Canada,
> these various Protestant groups merged, religiously, so to some degree
> ethnic 'tags' were lost. There is a book written about Irish settlement in
> Canada. Often we would not bother to read it, thinking it addresses Famine
> immigrants. Wrong. The book is about Irish Protestants who settled quite
> early. I know the name is in the archives of this list. Search for
> Canadian Irish. It showed that most were not Presbyterian but Methodist
> and did not come from Ulster. However when their daughter married the
> daughter of a Scots immigrant -- then their children were indeed "Scots
> Irish", but of course, not Ulster Scots.
>
> Slowly they are improving the indexes and access to early Canadian
> censuses that can assist you in figuring out where they came from.
> Traditionally land grants are very good as well as obits. However Canada
> is many places. My experience is in an area north of Toronto; you may need
> to read some books or find a list with well educated people who know the
> local history of your specific county and township. My limited experience
> has been that that is even MORE so than it is in the USA, where it is also
> true. I was also surprised at the number of people who didn't manifest in
> the ancestral area after immigrating from the Old World. A surprising
> number had, in the early 1800s, spent a generation in Canada alrealdy. By
> 1751 or so you can find censuses that can assist you in locating the
> ancestor's origins. Except of course for YOUR area <grin>. I found some
> areas had changed jurisdiction so often it was very very difficult to
> determine where they 'had been'. Here you need local expertise who know,
> for example, what the name and jurisdiction of "Zone Township" was in
> 1751. Or maybe it was uninhabited.
>
> Again when you drill down into the local history, you can often find
> record of where most of the inhabitants came from and sometimes even
> mention of their name and origin. In any case you need to use those
> censuses to glean all instances of the surname in surrounding areas or
> larger towns. Ie the man I was looking for moved to the frontier from
> Toronto after completing an apprenticeship as a blacksmith. He could have
> just as easily been a young son from one of the nearby Scots settlements
> who had the same name (Ritchie).
>
> The early censuses often asked the family religion, so check those. If
> they said Methodist and that they were Irish in origin, then they were
> probably not from Ulster (though they could be). If you share the surname,
> we can do some lookups for you.
>
> If you read this article below, you will see that the authors entirely
> equate "irish" with "Irish Catholic". There is nothing there about the
> sizable population of Irish Protestants. Not only did the poor Faminers
> cause distress to the sensibilities of better off settlers, but the
> violence long associated with Irish Republicanism resulted in those who
> could assume a different origin ("Ulster Scots" and "Scotch Irish" signal
> "We're not one of THEM!") did so. The ones stuck with an Irish moniker,
> like my Kellys, suffered a lot. Their problem wasn't their religion but
> the bigotry of the Germans. When my German great grandmother married an
> Irish Protestant, she was disinherited and her descendents had to enter
> through the kitchen door thereafter, with the servants.
>
> http://sz0106.wc.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/search?si=0&so=0&sc=7829&sfi=2&;
> st=message&action=compose&paction=view&id=12823&rf=text&op=replyAll
>
> There were a number of assisted emmigrations like Peter Robinsons:
> http://www.peterboroughmuseumandarchives.ca/robinson.htm
>
> This article is VERY interesting too:
> http://www.multiculturalcanada.ca/Encyclopedia/A-Z/i9/10
>
> Most of these studies focus on specific communities -- if you identified
> the surname and the county, maybe someone here would have specific
> information.
>
> This last article gives a great bibliography of these Canadian Irish
> studies.
> "The Untold Story: The Irish in Canada. (Toronto,
> 1988), vol.1, 308-19. North Tipperary and south Leinster Protestants,
> mostly in Ontario, are the respective focus of Bruce S. Elliott's Irish
> Migrants in the Canada: A New Approach (Montreal, 1988) and "Emigration
> from South Leinster to Eastern Upper Canada," Canadian Papers in Rural
> History, vol.8 (Gananoque, Ont., 1992), 277-305. Elliott further explores
> Irish settlement in eastern Ontario in his introduction to The McCabe
> List: Early Irish in the Ottawa Valley (Toronto, 1991), 1-7. Palatines are
> addressed in Carolyn A. Heald, The Irish Palatines in Ontario: Religion,
> Ethnicity, and Rural Migration (Gananoque, Ont., 1994), and Catharine A.
> Wilson's A New Lease on Life (Montreal, 1993) "
>
> The book I read was Bruce S. Elliott's Irish Migrants in the Canada: A New
> Approach (Montreal, 1988) and "Emigration from South Leinster to Eastern
> Upper Canada. There are SOME details in the archives of this list. But
> you can see right away how focused on specific areas of Canada these
> studies are. It is probably fairly correct to say that in general, Canada
> received, early, fewer DIRECT Ulster immigrants than did the lower
> colonies and states, but many more Scots and Irish Protestants from areas
> of Ireland outside of Ulster. For one reason -- these folk were not
> alienated from the British government like the Ulster Scots. They had no
> issues with it, so why not go to Canada? (for myself....it's colder...and
> it has more black flies than Massachusetts where I was almost eaten alive
> one spring, so.....<grin> ). Canada required far less of a cultural and
> political adjustment than the southern colonies/states.
>
> Just don't overlook the UEL angle -- but you can quickly tell from land
> grants if UELs (Americans: United Empire Loyalists) were settled in the
> district.. But if yours descended from UELs two generations before, it is
> possible they 'forgot', I suppose.....a lot of essental Loyalist lit is on
> line at www.genealogy.com, burnt into on-line CDs. I generally check these
> for 'lost' Americans. Americans show up in Kentucky after the Revolution
> with impossible to prove stories or none at all on their origins. Some are
> or were related to Loyalists, others are escaped indentured servants or
> even criminals that the British unloaded here before the Revolution. The
> USA was an early penal colony, esp. the southern coastal colonies.
> Of course this is not true of any of OUR ancestors <grin>. A lot of
> Marylanders split for Kentucky by 1778. They were Catholics, fearful of
> the US government. They settled together. A lot of Scots Royalists in that
> group. They unfortunately chose the one district in Kentucky with really
> poor soil so they dispersed to avoid starvation, some heading south into
> north west Tennessee and then west, a generation later, into Missouri and
> Arkansas. How did I get onto this??
>
> Best of luck!
>
> Linda Merle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeanne Swick
> To: List -
> Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 17:15:09 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: [S-I] I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-...
>
>
> I wonder if anyone can tell me how early the Scot-Irish were in Upper
> Canada. My family seems to have been there in 1822, long before the
> famine.
>
> Thanks
>
> JS
>
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