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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2008-10 > 1224532548


From: "W.F. Stephens" <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] Irish Protestants
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:55:48 -0400
References: <F20A4C1AB75C4C3BAA5C82E39EE75241@ginia2><66443.93283.qm@web39602.mail.mud.yahoo.com><D02E74EFB72B40FEA595FE3618E099A1@userPC>
In-Reply-To: <D02E74EFB72B40FEA595FE3618E099A1@userPC>


Boyd:

If memory serves me right, the English finally gave up trying to repress the
Presbyterians and stopped persecuting them. They then split apart the
Presbyterian/Catholic coalition by coming to terms with the Presbyterians .
It's unfortunate that the Presbyterians joined with the English in the
continued persecution of the Catholics.

In any case, it's probably lucky the English did persecute the Presbyterians
otherwise many of us would not be living in the USA, the USA might have
remained an English colony (and later a Commonwealth country), and the
course of world history may have been much different. And, as an
after-thought, if the American Revolution, in which the Scotch-Irish
participated wholeheartedly (my Hathorns had a father and his four sons in
the South Carolina militia), not succeeded in depriving the English a place
to which they could banish undesirables, such government opponents,
Australia may never have come about as early as it did.

Woody Stephens



If memory serves me right,
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 5:47 AM
Subject: [S-I] Irish Protestants


> Hi Linda (and Listers),
>
> Not really sure what you mean by your comment that "apparently it was
> possible to be both Protestant and Irish in the days of the United
> Irishmen". Of course it was possible to be Protestant and Irish in the
> 18th
> century. The United Irishmen rebellion in 1798 was largely a Protestant
> rebellion. Both leaders, Wolfe Tone and Henry Joy McCracken were
> Protestants. The majority of the local leaders in Ulster were Protestant
> and many were Presbyterian ministers. The Reverend James Porter, from
> Ballindrait, about 2 miles from where I am writing this, was executed
> within
> sight of his wife in the manse at Greyabbey for his role in the rebellion.
> I know that this concept of Presbyterian Irishmen is anathema to many
> modern
> Unionists (Ulster Protestants for those who don't understand modern Irish
> terminology) who have never read any history but it is a fact and there
> are
> very good reasons for it. Reasons which if they bothered to read would
> actually cheer today's Unionists.
>
> Money. As always money was at the root of it. By the mid 18th century
> the
> nascent Irish testile industry, much of it centred in the linen mills of
> Belfast rather than Dublin, was unable to compete within the rules devised
> by the Parliament at Westminster which favoured the more advanced English
> textile mills. They needed protectionism to survive. They needed their
> own
> parliament in Ireland to change the laws to enable them to survive or they
> would go bust. Hence the rebellion. And who were these mill owners and
> businessmen in Belfast? They certainly weren't catholics who weren't even
> allowed to own businesses. They were 90% Presbyterian. They made up the
> vast bulk of the driving force behind the United Irishmen in Ulster though
> many of the footsoldiers would have been catholic. As always, the middle
> classses, in this case Presbyterian, made the bullets and the poor old
> working class fired them!
>
> And remember, it was the same Prebyterians who had been persecuted so much
> in the previous two centuries by Anglican regimes in London that they
> emigrated in their thousands starting in 1718 with those famous Five Ships
> from Derry to Philly. And who organised that first expedition?
> Yayyyyyhooooo - my putative ancestor, the Reverend William Boyd of
> Macvosquin. Sorry, Linda, I always have to get that one in!!! So, there
> was a long history of Irish Protestant resistance to the establishment in
> England. Quite whether they ever called themselves Irish is of course a
> moot point long pored over by many academics in America. BUT the
> Presbyterians of the United IRISHMEN, to whom you refer, certainly called
> themselves Irish and were leg by Presbyterian Protestants, a fact often
> forgotten, dare I say deliberately, by BOTH traditions in Ireland because
> it
> does not suit their prejudices. Or they would do if people like me did
> not
> keep reminding them of it.
>
> And it is all in Kerby Miller's great book yet again. Read those letters,
> many of them written by my fellow Donegal men, Presbyterians of the Laggan
> Valley, who were fleeing persecution post 1798.
>
> Boyd (an Irish Protestant and proud of it, but with a Scotch-Irish name
> and
> writing very tongue in cheek)
>
> SNIP
> Apparently in the days of the United Irish, it was possible to be
> Protestant
> and Irish in Northern Ireland. I have met people there who still are. Most
> are branded with Irish surnames, like Kelly. They can't 'escape' any more
> than my Kelly ancestors could, from being Irish. However they get called
> 'soupers' a lot, they told me. But there were many more 200 years ago, I
> suspect.
>
> Linda Merle
>
>
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