Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 2008-06 > 1213494795
From: John Carpenter <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] FREE BEER ? & IRISH
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
We're discussed in family genealogical sessions whether the original John McElhannon was born to a Protestant or Catholic family. His first wife was probably Nancy Cooper who was considered SI Presbyterian like most of her neighbors in York and Lancaster counties PA back then. It's heavily PA Dutch or German now. Their first son born the given name of Christopher which is far more common among Catholics than Protestants and John, while he wrote the date and place of his birth in his Bible in later years in GA, he did not name his parents or give any data on baptism, christening or anything else. Most of the few McElhannons we have found who we can't connect to our line are Catholic whether in Ireland or more often New Zealand or Australia.
Drop by anytime for a beer........unlike many of my McElhannon kinfolks I didn't inherit the depression DNA that caused so many in my branch of the family to drink so I always keep beer in the icebox..........now does that word date me? I've never actually lived with an icebox but my wife and I still call the refrigerator an icebox....always nice and cold and full-bodied......
Of course the Scots were originally a Celtic tribe in Ireland..you know the history of Dalriada and the Picts may or may not have been Celts. But I can believe there is a lot of overlap in yDNA. My own passed down from the Carpenters is Turkic........most of the Europeans who carry it are Levite Jews.......
But I wonder about the Shaws in my Carpenter ancestry........and the Rodgers came from NH in my oldest record of them......about 1820 when my great grandmother was born in Marlow.........NH, married in NY state, bore her childen in WI, lived in Dakota Territory and died on a desert farm in southen NM, buried by her husband in Biloxi, MS........lot of traveling for that poor woman..........by shorter stages than a ship from Belfast or Londonderry but still hard work.
Hi John, I donno, I'm getting pretty OLD here, myself! I might be older than you!
The definitive work (meaning the book by the expert) on Irish emigration is a book by Kerby Miller.
He agrees with you that many colonial-era emigrants were native Irish. The reason is that Donegal
had very poor soil. He says it lost most of its population long before the Famine. This explains
why if you look at DNA projects like the Cumberland Gap one or DNA projects related to
upland Virginia -- the amount of R1b1c7 is astonishing. LOTS of native Irish. In I think it is
Hanna "The Scotch Irish", the story is recounted of an Irish priest who toured the Applachians
in the early 1800s where he encountered many Irish surnames and many people who said they
were Irish -- but they were all Protestants. It was impossible to be Catholic in the area. There
was no church, no priest, no mass, no catechism.....so your children and grandchildren could not
be Catholic, assuming you were! If you were you kept your mouth shut, having lived in Ulster
and knowing that you were surrounded by 99% Protestants.
Where things started to change in both attitude and sociologically was after the American Revolution
and the failed United Irish Rebellion in Ireland. It had profound affects on American politics and
sociology. The lucky ones escaped to America where they pursued their agenda -- the rights of man --
and won their battle by assisting in defeating forever the Federalists. Before the Revolution Americans
tended to live in ethnic enclaves, but afterwards we began to mix. One reason was United Irish values.
About 1800 the Rev. John Black, a young minister from Ahoghill, Antrim, was a nationally known figure.
I descend from his brother. He and others carried on a national debate on various issues including
slavery. I read a book on the subject. "United Irishmen, United States: Immigrant Radicals in the Early
Republic" by David A. Wilson.
In I think 1795 a group of Irish of mixed religions from the Fermanagh area settled in
what is now Butler Co, PA. They left Ireland after making political speeches about what they thought
of oppressing people due to their religion (not much at all). When the Catholics were organizing to
form the first diocese west of the Alleghenies, their Protestant neighbors signed the petition. They
founded the Pittsburgh diocese. The most radical ideas of the time came from Ulster and were
brought to the national attention by Presbyterian ministers born and bred in County Antrim.
The point is that it is not a new idea that "Irish" is geographical, like "US Citizen". It doesn't say a
lot about your religion or political position or even where your ancestors lived.
Unfortunately the poor in Ireland were invisible because their names do not appear in the types
of records that were created. Most of them were Catholics. However if your ancestors were Protestant
they were more likely to appear on a muster list (in a time when Catholics were not allowed to
have guns), for example. So it is much easier to research Protestants whether they are Scots or
However 100% of them, if in Ireland, were Irish. If you choose to let some ethnic group hijack the
name Irish for themselves, that's not so smart. That's like claiming "American" only means Indians,
or Anglo Saxons, or US Citizens instead of Canadians, Mexicans, etc, etc etc. Our ancestors
were a type of Irish called Ulster Scots (or various other names I will not repeat ).
If anyone wants to buy me a beer.....I'm available.
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