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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2008-04 > 1207068830


From: "Cliff. Johnston" <>
Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 3, Issue 36
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:53:50 -0500
References: <141394.42356.qm@web51906.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Michael,

Thanks for the history lesson - most of us are well aware of most of those
facts.

Hmmm, when I visited Scotland 10 years ago I wonder where all of those Scots
were whom you claim should have called themselves "British"? I never met
one. They all called themselves "Scots" and "Scottish". M'boy, you sound
too "English" to me...

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Montgomery Michael" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 3, Issue 36


> Dear All
>
> Well, put simply, "Britain" includes "Scotland" and
> "Wales" in addition to "England." Some folks in
> Northern Ireland consider themselve "British" too
> (I'll not get into that), but everyone in Scotland and
> Wales would call hemselves British. This isn't to say
> that they won't also (or even primarily) consider
> themselves Scots or Welsh, but at least as a secondary
> identification people in the kingdom of Scotland and
> the Principality of Wales do claim a secondary
> identity as British. Do NOT call a person from Wales
> or Scotland English, or you are likely to get into
> immediate trouble or at least to cause pain.
>
> Americans like to simplify identifications in the
> British Isles, but they should know better. A typical
> resident of Pittsburgh would consider him/herself an
> American, a Pennsylvanian, a Pittsburghers, and maybe
> even employ a label for a certain part of town that
> s/he is from. We all inhabit a world of multiple
> identities. For this reason, reidents of Ballymena
> might consider themselves Irish, Northern Irish,
> County Antrim, etc. or Northern Irish, British, Co.
> Antrim, etc. But don't call a person from outside
> England English. England and Wales merged
> administratively in the 13th century, and with the
> Union of the Parliaments in 1707 Scotland joined them
> in becoming Great Britain, but the three entities
> still maintain national identities. With the advent
> of devolution within the past decade (formation of the
> Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament), these
> have been only enhanced. The latter development has
> led to increasing sentiment within England for its own
> "regional" parliament, as Scottish MPs at Westminster
> can vote on many polities affecting England but
> English MPs there cannot vote on many policies
> affecting Scotland. Half the citizens of Scotland now
> want it to become independent. On these issues, stay
> tuned. As the world gets bigger and national
> boundaries more blurred, it is regional and local
> identifications that are often filling a gap and
> strengthen who they consider themselves to be.
>
> Hope this isn't confusing, but just don't use British
> and Britain interchangeably with English and England.
> Many of our Scottish, Welsh, and Ulster ancestors
> would have disowned us! They knew the difference,
> even if Americans (including many diplomats,
> newscasters, etc.) do not.
>
> A good book to read on the subject is Hugh Kearney's
> _The British Isles: A History of Four Nations_.
>
> Good wishes to all
>
> Michael
>
> From: Add Mobile Alert
> To: "Montgomery Michael" <>,
>
> Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 3, Issue
> 35
> Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:28:16 +0000
> Dear Dr. Montgomery,
>
>>That said, an astounding number of Americans cannot
>> state the different between "British" and "English,"
> Agreed! Could you lead us in an explanation? Then a
> few of us will be educated on the difference.
>
> Or British/English cousins -- feel free to pipe up
> (politely).......
> Otherwise if we start to brawl, someone'll call the
> police and we'll all end up in the Clink. (How many of
> you know what the Clink was or why we got this phrase
> in English?).
>
> Linda Merle (SI Admin)
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Montgomery Michael <>
>
> > Dear All
> >
> > While I think that the Library of Congress' idea
> to
> > subsume "Scottish literature" under "English
> > literature" was dumb and parcohial, it was
> rather
> > strange to see this story simply reprinted in
> the
> > March 2008 issue of _The Ulster-Scot_. This is
> > because the LOC bent to the outrage in December
> and
> > officially withdrew the proposal in January, so
> it
> > should have been pretty old news by the time the
> paper
> > went to press in mid-March. Normal journalistic
> > practice would have cited the author or source
> of the
> > story reprinted in _The Ulster-Scot_; it was run
> on
> > the internet by the BBC on December 22.
> >
> > That said, an astounding number of Americans
> cannot > state the different between "British" and
> "English,"
> > and American journalists very regularly use the
> terms
> > interchangeably. So it's not surprising that the
> LOC
> > sleepwalked into their misguided decision.
> >
> > Michael Montgomery
> >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:33:56 EDT
> > > From:
> > > Subject: [S-I] Library of Congress can't tell
> the
> > > difference between "British" and "English"
> > > To:
> > >
> > > Some of you may be interested in reading the
> article
> > > at the bottom of this
> > > page in the recent issue of The Ulster-Scot.
> > >
> > >
> >
> _http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/sitefiles/resources/March%2008-PG15.pdf_
> > >
> >
> (http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/sitefiles/resources/March%2008-PG15.pdf)
> > >
> > > Katherine
>
>
>
>
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