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From:
Subject: Re: [S-I] James Breden
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 21:36:07 +0000


Hi Jerry, Welcome to our common condition!

I can tell you a few things about the people who came with the Rev. Martin. I hope you haven't 'done' much research or you already know all this, in which case, sorry!

1. It's extremely important if your ancestor came 'with' some minister to research him and his church affiliation in Ireland. Your's came with the Rev. Martin, you say. He was the only minister that the Reformed Presbyterian church in Ireland (aka "Covanantors") had in Ireland at the time. His
'congregation' covered all of County Down and County Antrim. Some mistakenly believe that
because his church building was at Kells, that they need only search locally. Wrong. Furthermore,
he was from Derry or Tyrone (I forget but it's in the archives), so one can assume people there
knew he was leaving and might have come along. He was a circuit rider, covering a very large
territory. He was so critical to the church that after he left it collapsed, It was decades before
they got going again. Then it was with three youngsters, the Rev. John Black, John McKinney (I
think it was John, and the Rev. Samuel Wiley, who left in the late 1700s. The gov was after John
Black for alleged United Irish involvement. They were all three from the central Antrim area
that the Rev. Martin called home.

However as you may gather, it was a wee small group. So if your ancestors were Covenantors,
that's a second major clue because there were few of them. There were a handful of congregations.
Largely people were organized in societies that often took the name of the townland they all lived
on. These societies were extremely stable. With some you can trace the surname back hundreds
of years in Ireland. They remained together in America, or mine did. So be very very attentive
to the names of those around them -- who did their children marry, who did they buy/sell land
with, most importantly, who witnessed their wills? Major clue. We missed one on my mother's
grandmother's side, Kellys. The will of my great great grandad was witnessed by one of the
minister-sons of the Rev. John Black (a major national figure in the early 1800s and first RP
minister in the Pittsburgh area). He is an ancestor of mine on my grandfather's side. Here was
a connection on my grandmother's side. The Kelly are difficult to trace. However we have fou nd
a Kelly family with RP connections in a nearby town. Maybe this'll help us out eventually.

There are books on the history of this church, websites, and even somewhere on the Internet
(which our website and/or google) all the congregations in Ireland. Only a handful.

2. What's the surname about? The good news is it is not in Bell "Book of Ulster Surnames", our
bible. However he only cover the top 300 surnames. Due to variants, he covers much more than
that. But not, that I see, yours. Of course I spent 30 seconds on this....if you get a copy and
spend 30 minutes on all variants, you might have better luck.

In any case, it's rare. That's great news. It is in MacLysaght "The Surnames of Ireland". He
vaccumed up all he could find, not just the most common. He says
Bredin, Breadin -- these and other variants (Braden, etc) are mainly in Tyrone and Fermanagh.
In Leitrim, as well as Bradden, they are anglicized form of O Braddin. In Leinster Breadon is
an Anglo-Norman toponomic.

What's this mean??? It means you need a Guinness. Although you got a place in Ulster, there's
a possiblity that they came from Leinster or Leitrim. Both places are close to Ulster. In the one
place most people with the surname would be of Irish origin. In the other it came with the Normans.

In one of the definitive books on British sur names, Reaney and Wilson "Dictionary of English Surnames" for Beadon it says see Breedon....This is probably where MacLysaght got his info.
The name was seen as early as 1204 de Bredon and he gives sources and places in England.
You don't care right now.

Since MacLysaght said it was a form of O'Bradden, I checked that. That said "See Salmon".
I went there. Salmon and Sammon are found in Connacht, an anglicization by translation of
O'Bradain, which is found in its original form in Donegal and Leitrim. West Ulster. Of course
Salmon could be of English origin too. This means you want to keep the eye open. If you end
up in a parish in West Ulster or Connacht (Leitrim) check to see if there are O'Braddens or
Salmons in the neighborhood. There are many articles written about people hitting brick walls
in Irish genealogy. Additional investigation reveals that people changed the surname, in the
way you have seen, or just because everyone had the same surname so some just adopted
another. This is harder to pick up before church records. Which is where you and I are
researching.

Yeh, you say, but you believe your family is of Scots origin.

The definitive work on Scottish surnames is Black "Surnames of Scotland". He has Braden.
He thought it might be from the Irish (see above). It is mentioned as early as 1629, but not
earlier than the 1600s, meaning maybe it was used earlier in an area of Scotland that his methodology
left uncovered (he uses written records; large parts of Gaelic Scotland had none till almost
1900), or someone crossed the Sheugh then or for whatever reason, the name appeared.
As many English people went to Scotland it could be English. Some were invited, espl. Norman
noblemen, by Scottish kings. Some were hauled back as slaves. For a very long time it
wasn't clear where the border was and the people living there didn't care anyhow. They dispised
people in Edinburgh and London equally.

To find out more about it in Scotland, you fire up www.familysearch.org and explore IGI.
It contains the index to the Scottish OPRs. If this term is new to you, download their guide
to Scottish genealogy. You got some learning to do. It's Old Parish Records.

IGI does not have good coverage for Ireland because there's no OPRs. Presbyterians in
Ireland didn't keep records for a long time as their church wasn't legal and it did get persecuted
in the 1630s. Illegal orgs rarely keep good records. Stupid! What if they got found??

However due to the rareness of the surname, anything in Ulster on the surname should be
of interest to you. there's a lot of info to be found on line these days.

The fast way to find out if your ancestor was Irish, Scots, or English, origin is a DNA test.
That might be able to identify the county of origin for you.

If I get some free time here, I'll check Griffth's Valuation and the Tithe Applotment index
CDs for the name. That's one methodology. Use these to localize the surname and dive into
local records.

Sorry to bore you if you know all this already.

You should also check our archives as several people have put many transcriptions related
to the Reformed Presbyies into them and you might find some hits.

If this is your first venture into Irish genealogy, you need to obtain a couple books and read them.
Ryan "Irish Records" is one that comes to mind. There's a lot to know. If you don't learn some of it you will overlook valuable clues.

Best of luck!

Linda Merle
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "jerry" <>

> Searching information on James Breden before he reached the new America.
>
> James Breden
> Wife : Margery
> Departed either Larne or Newry on the ship FreeMason with the Rev William Martin
> and four other ships (James & Mary,Lord Dunluce, Pennsylvania Farmer and the
> Hopewell ). They departed Ireland at the end of August and arrived to the new
> America on Dec 19,20 and 22 of year 1772. Can anyone help? Appreciate and
> information, no matter how small. Thanks William
>
>
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