Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 2006-11 > 1162656774
Subject: Re: [S-I] 1609 Pardon List
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:12:54 +0000
The way you find out more is either google a lot and/or you read some history. Doing either a lot is very very very useful, in fact, critical for us to do because it helps us develop our research skills. WIthout research skills we very quickly run out of steam and have no idea what to do. For any problem, if you don't know what to do next, do research <grin>! The college where I went had a strong library science department. It's students were always in the library doing research. All kinds of stuff. It didn't matter. The point was that no matter what a client at a library asks the librarian, the librarian should be able to turn to the basic reference materials and use them to find more information. I didn't appreciate it at the time.
Others of us learn to do it in grad school. It's a very valuable skill because once you learn it you can learn anything. So do your self a favor and do not take what I tell you. Frankly, I'm about to walk my dog and do my stuff for the day, so I'm not spending much time on this. If it doesn't satisfy you (I hope it doesn't), you do research...and report back to us if you find anything good!
So anyway, consulting my brain, the only conflicts just over in 1609 in Ulster were O'Neill's very long war and the very short revolt of Sir Cahir O'Doherty in 1607. Okay, I cheated here and looked up the year in "A History of Ulster " by Jonathan Bardon because I don't remember years well at all! Wew, I was okay, O'Doherty's rebellion was over in 1609. See p. 118. I am not typing in several pages of stuff here. It was centered in Donegal. After O'Doherty was killed, it continued a whiles. Most likely this is it as those names are the names of our beloved ancestors, the local Ulster clans living in that area. There's a website with the history of these clans. Google for Ulster Irish clans. That's how I find it when I need it.
You can probably find more of help in a detailed history of Ulster. This book says nothing at all about the pardon. Another place is the state papers. If you pursue the links I provided yesterday you will learn more. An obvious source is also Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research". She has a lot of info aimed at genealogists on parliamentary records (about p. 490 in Vol I)
but she's focusing on Irish parliamentary records. Many of these were destroyed in the Four Court fire so you access them via secondary sources like Lodge's Manuscripts. These were compiled from the patent rolls and close rolls. She has a long list of what is in them, including an alphabetical list of converts and Protestant immigrants with place of residence, dates, from 1703 to 1772. Also a list of Protestants who settled in Ireland due to an Act of Parliament 3 Charles II (act of Parliament in the 3rd year of Charles II's reign), also articles with Irish chiefs, denizations (naturalizations), general pardons, etc, between the governers of Ireland and several Irish chiefs from Henry IV to Elizabeth)...too early for you. You want James I. Here's is another list of noted settlers to the Ulster plantation that goes from Richard II to George I. The benefit of her is she has arranged the stuff for consumption by genealogists, not historians or statesmen. The book is in most l!
s with a genealogy section.
Clearly you need to know the sequence of your monarchs here as they are organized by monarch and year of his/her rule....daunting to Americans. I have read enough history I kinda know it now, which helps a lot.
She recommends, in fact, she says without doing this you will NOT be able to figure out what is there, you use the Reports of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records in Ireland 55th to 58th. This is probably in LDS, but the material would also be indexed in Hayes. He produced a multiple vol. index to Irish records. For more info see www.rootsweb.com/~bifhsusa (their Irish materials).
However it is probably also indexed in the Irish National Archives manuscripts. There is a lot of info on that collection in
Falley as well as gee, various places. There's a published index to that done in the late 1990s (in LDS) but I used the index in the microfilm collection at LDS. As so much of the material in the Irish National Archives is microfilmed, you can go to Salt
Lake and do it fast. It is also in Los Angeles (the NI collection is not unless they obtained it in the last 6 years).
There's also an index called NIDS that is in Salt Lake and Los ANgeles (2nd largest LDS library is there). It is also at various research universities. You want the Irish collection....it's on microfilm, usually. There's a cd as well.
Lots of ways to dive into this materials, in other words. Mostly it is not done by genealogists as they really aren't usually trained or experienced at doing research. Instead they decide that there is nothing more to be done becuase they dont' know of anything to do <grin>. When you don't know what to do next, read a book, search the internet, subscribe to a periodical...always works for me! sometimes serendipity works too.... You pick up an old "Heritage Quest" and there's an article on your brick wall!!
Eventually you either take up knitting as a hobby or learn to really enjoy The Hunt. Bagging your prey is fun too but if that was what it was about, if you were a fox hunter, you'd have a cage of foxes in your barn, and when you wanted to kill a fox you'd reach in and break one's neck. However that's not what fox hunting is about either....it's the hunt itself.
The details of the pardon list of 1609 are in the state papers. They are I believe published. They may be at a research library near you (university), on microfilm, but before you do that, try some detailed histories of Ulster. If you spend an hour or two exploring the website with the state papers I gave you yesterday, you'll be able to answer most of your questions. It takes time.
The McLaughlins who posted it may also know more. Many of the Irish clans do study their own history <grin>! Email the guy. I know him, he's a fine guy, but I don't know what he knows about O'Doherty's rebellion. I just googled in it and there's a lot on the Internet including this here: www.flightoftheearls.net/historical_documents.html . (the rebellion was after the flight of the earls).
There's a lot in Hanna "The Scotch Irish" on this period as well.
You gotta learn to use the ol' google . Amazing what you can find there.
I know from talking with Barra McCain, who seems to be the world's expert on Ulster families, that some McKemies were Irish. He seemed to know just who. He's busy and usually expects people to join the Ulster DNA project if they want his time, and paying him a retainer is even more likely to get his attention. He is trying to raise a family as well as feeding cats. I work with him on the McCamish project as a paid consultant. So far our lads don't look like McCamies. They're either O'Doherties or O'Cahans. But could be the same thing <grin>!! Barra's ancestors came in 1718 to New England...they are O'Cahans.
Many of the ethnic Ulster Scots of the 1700s were Scots but a lot of them were Irish too. And many Scots have Irish ancestors...it's confusing sorting them out with DNA even. I'm sure some of the ethnic Irish have Scottish ancestors. They do too which is why some avoid family history......"We have seen the enemy and he is us".
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Jennifer McKemie" <>
Thanks for your response! As always, very helpful.
That's sorta what I'm looking for--what conflict it might have been to see if that might help further the research. Is there a way to tell where they were with any more detail and/or what particular conflict, other than loyal to the O'Neill?
Thank you for the links, especially the Wikipedia one, as I learned what the "Pat. 6 James 1 CIII.-37" means, at least in part!
And while McKemie as son of Jaimie is correct, it is only one of several. McKemie also means son of Simon, in Gaelic mac shimidh. Additionally, I have sasines that show a M'Kamie aka Fullerton. Fullerton and Jamieson are in some instances the same family, with one James Fullerton moving down into Bute and his descendants becoming MacCamie, or son of Jamie. So at the moment there is no "McKemie means this" statement that is all-inclusive! Hence all this study. I love answering e-mails (as I'm sure we all do!) that say simply "Is my name Scottish or Irish?" and having to go through the long explanation that explains how and why we could be one, the other, or both, and why I don't know!
McKemie One Name Study (#4203)
And my mastiffs... http://osandchoc.blogspot.com/
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:35 PM
To: Jennifer McKemie;
Subject: Re: [S-I] 1609 Pardon List
Kings, parliaments, governors of states, etc, pardon criminals, rebels or who ever else requires pardoning. This is a list of men pardoned in 1609 no doubt due to activities in the recent war. They are in the state papers. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Acts_of_Parliament_of_the_English_Parliament,_1601_to_1640 for more info.
Eventually if we can get our family history back far enough, we end up perusing the state papers for additonal info. Our ancestors might be included in state papers for various reasons. Divorces, naturalization. If you check the above page you'll see lots of naturalizations. The ultimate black hole for the family historian. I believe the Scottish ones are in Latin. At last a use for that high school Latin!! I've seen some Scottish court records I couldn't TELL if they were in Scots or Latin <grin>, but I never claimed to be able to read 17th century Scots documents...
Googling some more, more info here:
The published state papers are here:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15029 I don't know if they are in the English parliament papers (I don't see them) or the Irish.
If you look at the names on the list, they're Irish. These are Irishmen being pardoned for their rebellion by the King. What does it mean? It means these men were in Ulster and believed to have been on the side of O'Neill and the other Irish clans. So after the war ended, they were pardoned, a formal act, that allowed them to keep their heads and properties. They were almost certainly Catholic Gaelic speakers, resident in Ireland. Since McKemie is son of Jamie, of course there were some men named Jamie whose sons were Catholic and Irish. Some might certainly have had Scots roots, highland roots. Some were sure to be or descend from Scots galloglass soldiers (if you're scraping for some Scottish connection). Men at least nominally Catholic whose primary tongue was Gaelic. Not a lowland settler.
The 'joke' in Ulster is no one does family history for fear of finding out we are them.
I think Robert of Ulster Ancestry posted them on his website, so maybe he can tell us which parliament, unless they are a subset of the general pardon of 1609???
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Jennifer McKemie" <>
> Can someone point me in the right direction to learn more about the Pardon
> List of 1609? Preferably a resource online, but lacking that, anything
> else. I have not previously given the fact that two men of my surname
> appear on the list much thought, but recently had the obvious pointed
> out--that if they were on this list, they were Irish. This is the list I am
> speaking of: http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/donegal4.htm Donnell McKemie
> and Eveny McKemy are listed.
> Thank you,
> Jennifer McKemie
> McKemie One Name Study (#4203)
> www.mckemie.or g
> And my mastiffs... http://osandchoc.blogspot.com/
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