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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2006-04 > 1144335953


From: "Edward Andrews" <>
Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Roll Call - McKENZIE & MILLER - Antrim / Derry, Ire - 1790 to 1850
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:05:53 +0100
In-Reply-To: <005501c65986$55ce48f0$650fa8c0@WLM>


As this is an Irish list and not a Scottish list I don't normally comment
on Scottish history here. There are however a couple of comments which I
need to make.
What are you doing mentioning Henry VIII?
Until 1603 Scotland and England were separate countries in every way, you
know like Canada and the US?
The Episcopalians lost out to the Presbyterian in 1689 at the time of the
"Glorious" revolution. 1745 was a rebellion after which the Episcopalians
were more heavily persecuted.

The whole point of this list is that while Ireland was mainly Roman
Catholic as the Reformation didn't work in Ireland, the various population
movements into the North East changed that balance so that in that area a
majority were protestant of one kind or another - the mixture of protestant
denominations is important as they all have different records and different
folk memories.
While there were not well known risings in Ireland during the 18th Century,
There was a constant rumble of inter communal tensions over the problem of
land holdings. Presbyterians were under various civil disadvantages. However
the people in Ulster had Ulster tenant right which meant that when the early
99 year or three lives leases fell in people had capital which they were
able to take to the new colony in America.

There had always been movement between Scotland and Ireland however after
the Plantation most of the movement from Scotland was Protestant as most of
Scotland was Protestant.
Generally speaking you can't really make any judgement of people's religion
by their surname. For example what would you expect an Adams to be?
I hope that this clarifies some of the misconceptions which you have here.
Edward Andrews

-----Original Message-----
From: Walt"Irish"- Cent.NJ Shore via Boston [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 3:28 PM
To:
Subject: [Sc-Ir] Roll Call - McKENZIE & MILLER - Antrim / Derry, Ire - 1790
to 1850

McKENZIE ~ MADDEN ~ CASSIDY ~ O'NEIL ~ SULLIVAN ~ SHEEHAN
IRE Sponsors : MOONEY ~ GREY ~ KENNEDY in USA
BALLYMONEY ~ QUEBEC ~ YORK ~ LANCASHIRE ~ GLASGOW ~ BOSTON
Greetings All ,
Primary essential roll call info is on first portion of
page 1. Any input
greatly appreciated. McKenzie suggest Protestant but family all CATHOLIC
since
1874 US & possibly earlier in 18-19th century Ire.
May the God of your understanding BLESS
YOU.
Grandpa Walt
"Scot-Ulster-Irish" McKenzie, Sr.

Unknown McKENZIE b.c. 1793*
(My GGG Grandfather)
//BRICKWALL INDIVIDUAL\\
Daniel McKENZIE b.c. 1820* Ire ? John McKENZIE b.c. 1827* Ire ?
(My GG Grandfather) (Daniel's Brother or Cousin
? - Farmer**)
d.c. 1871*** Ire ?
Children
m.c. 1846 Mgt. MILLER (Mueller)* James Lloyd b.c.1848-52**&**** Ire
Not listed at Groni as Protestant m. m. April 25, 1874 to Mary CASSIDY
Ire**.
Children (at CATHOLIC Chapel
North Rd. York, ENG)
BALLYMONEY,*****Ire Children****
Elizabeth b. June1841 or 47****Ire Alice E. 5, John 3, & Mary
A. 2m
m. None - To BOSTON 1895 James - stone mason**** 1881 & labourer**
1874
John b. Aug 1848 Ire From YORK to LANCASHIRE, ENG
1878-1880
m. 1874 CATH.- Katie MADDEN KEIGHLY / BINGLEY to ACCRINGTON Distrs.
Children USA GeorgeThomas
b.c.1885-89**GATESHEAD ?,ENG
Francis (Frank) Joseph b. 1875 GLASGOW to NY 1907 Residence ANNAN,SCOT
John , Jr. b. 1881 CATHOLIC m. 908 BOSTON to
Helen MADDEN
Daniel Christopher b. 1887 Soc. Secu. 1935 - Age 48 Unemployed -
Parents :
Joseph b. 1891 JamesLoyd McKENZIE & MaryAnn
McKENZIE
O'NEIL~SULLIVAN~SHEEHAN Shipper Foreman 1908 & House Painter 1968
BOSTON-SOMERVILLE,MA,USA Children - None
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
* Based on children birth year.
** Children or self m. record.
*** Based on son John 1872 arrival in BOSTON via QUEBEC, CANADA.
**** Based on children age, b. in 1900 US or 1881 ENG census.
***** Children ship passenger record ; 12 in Ire, likely ANTRIM, Ire.
BACKGROUND INFO

SCOTS / ULSTER / IRISH - 17-18th CENTURY - Mc PROT. / CATH. - 03 / 06

Scot. - Reformation (1533 Henry VIII) took place post-1560 and
during the
600 -1700's (17th -18th century) Scot. transformed itself from Catholicism
to
Protestantism. In the 1600's there was much upheaval in Scot. In 1702,
Scot. was
less than 5 % Catholic and concentrated in the NW islands, the Highlands,
Aberdeenshire. In 1745, the Episcopalians lost out to the CoS Presbyt.
Both
Protestant & Catholic Scots men went to Antrim, Ulster, Ire as farmers,
builders
& blacksmiths and married Irish Catholic women. Even though the Presbyt.
were
more welcomed than the Catholics, the children were raised Catholic and
eventually
the whole family assimilating into Irish culture and thus lost their Scots
identity.
The Irish Clan McSweeny, Clan Donald & O'Neill, originally from Scot., are
well-known examples. Many Catholics were given shelter and protected by Sir
Randal McDonald, ethically Catholic, in his Glens of Antrim, Ire. These
Scots were
from Ayrshire & Argyle (McDonald homeland).
Ire - During the 16-1700's (17-18th century) Ire was mostly
Catholic. LDS
Family Search.org list in Ire b. 1688, a James McKenzie of Carnmoney, Co.
Antrim and b. 1698, a Rev. John McKenzie (Presbytr. pastor 1673-1696 CoI ?)
appeared in Cookstown, Tyrone. In the 1700's, Ire was relatively peaceful
until
the 1798 Rebellion which brought economic restrictions and less immigration.
In 1718, the first wave of Ulster Scots emigrated to America. Also,
Presbyt. &
Catholic restrictions were starting to be lifted.

IRE APPLOMT. TITHES -ANTRIM/DERRY - 1831 - Mc PROT./CATH.-03 / 06

By the 19th century in 1830"s there were substantial presence of
Catholic
Mc surnames in NI. Upon surveying some of the Antrim / Derry 1830's NI
Applotments Tithes records, it is apparent that Mc surnames are
approximately
24 % Catholic. The 76 % Protestant are largely Presbyterian. Of the Mc's,
none
were McKenzie and one was a McKinny. This is expected since US records
indicate that my family were poor farmers in Ire and 3 adult males were
unemployed in the 1900 census. There were 57 % Mc's families with the
identical
surname that were split e.g. 67 % or 50 % or 33 % Catholic vs. Protestant.
Families remaining all Protestant represented 43 % of the Mc's. It is
interesting to
note, that all the Miller's were Protestant. The O'Neil's were 17%
Catholic. As
expected, there were no primarily So. Ire Madden, Cassidy, Sullivan or
Sheehan
etc. Via the Tithes, the first apparent Catholic McKenzie in Ire, a John
McKenzie
b.c 1783 in Sligo followed by a John McKenzie b.c. 1824 in Quinn, Co. Clare.
In the Ire 1831 Aghadowey, Derry census, 1 Daniel McKensey is
listed. Via
Griffiths records, one Daniel McKenzie (DM) has been identified in each Cos.
Derry
(Magherafelt, Leckagh), Tyrone (Donaghmore, Mullaughmore), Mayo
(Crossmolina)
& Fermanagh (Derrybrusk, Ballyreagh). Other Fermanagh McKenzie family
Derryvullan Irvinestown & Tempo. One DM listed in Co. Antrim 1842 Belfast
directory as a pub owner living at Donegal Quay. No DM's found in Tithes
and the
surname McKenzie were Tyrone 30, Antrim 7, Down 2 & Derry 1. Dual surname
(McKenzie / Miller) are as follows : Tyrone 18, Belfast 12, Derry 9, Antrim
8, Sligo 4,
Down 3, Dublin 3 with 1 each in Fermanagh, Monahan, Laois. Via LDS IGI, one
DM each identified in Cos. Donegal, Sligo, Kerry & Limerick. A total of 7
documented DM's in all and as expected all in No. Ire with 4 in Ulster.
There are
probably a few more DM's, just too poor to be listed on any records. From
1875 to
1908 in the US there is no given name pattern in my McKenzie line that
follow Scot or Ire naming pattern.
The bad news is ... some will say that one can not trace / find
common or
average people before 1820. Maybe true for Catholics but, the good news is
that
this is not true, particularly for Protestants. Protestants are far more
likely to be
named in some unusual records that they did manage to keep in Ireland before
church records. One needs to learn how to find and use these records. First,
you
need to already have some info on your ancestor. Surnames do not only
originated
in one place and migrate from there. This is especially true with Me
surnames.
Secondly, for pre-1860 records, particularly Catholic, one needs to depend
heavily
on the net and genealogy list, & individuals interaction / interchange, as
well as,
baptismal records to obtain very difficult brickwall 18th - 19th century
data. The
best path is via brickwall roll call summaries with key individuals,
surnames,
places of origin, religion(s), dates with postings at regular intervals.
Religion
Suggest Protestant Suggest Catholic
-------------------------
-----------------------
o McKenzie surname more likely o Daniel's c. 1846 m., not listed
as
Protestant of Scot. origin. Protestant at
GRONI.
o Miller surname more likely o John b. Aug.1848 of Ire, m.
Katie
Protestant of German, English Madden of Ire (single
boarder) via a
origin. Cath.
Mass less than 2 yrs
after

arriving in Boston.
o James
b.c. 1848-52 of Ire,
m. Mary

Cassidy of Ire (single
boarder) via

Cath. Mass 1874 in Eng.
o All 6 US
b. McKenzie's
1875-1908
as
well as all 1908-2002
were b., m.
& d.
in Cath. Church and
utilized

Cath. Homes for children
& elderly

during early 1900's.
o George
b. c. 1887 Eng, m. US
Cath.

Mass 1908 less than 1
yr. after

arriving in Boston.



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