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From: "Brian Orr" <>
Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Web site -
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:30:49 +0100
References: <>

Edward, I thought I would put this into general list correspondence as it expands on the basics of the Plantation

Hi folks.

Yes Edward, you are correct of course. Not that the English Parliament/Privy Council were that convinced of the merits or rights of anyone else eg trade bans on Scottish produce and subsequently also in Ulster. It is an interesting point if decisions by the English Parliament were binding on Scotland. I think not until 1707.

The English Privy Council approved the principle of Plantation on 29 Sep 1607 but there was far more land than they first realised and two surveys were undertaken that took until 1609 before `allocation of the lands. There was also a minor rebellion in the meantime by disaffected nobles The Plantation was separately announced in Scotland following a letter to the Privy Council there from Sir Alexander Hay of 19 March 1609 which said inter alia the kings will

"out of his unspeikable love and tendir affectioun for his ancient subjects, to let Scots partake of the forfeited Irish lands"

The implication is that allowing the Scots to join in the Plantation was almost an afterthought. There was real concern that the Scottish `undertakers` may not have the finances to complete all the obligations and were therefore required to obtain sureties . This led in some instances to family groups supporting one another in the enterprise. Another consequence was that the Scots received allocations of 59 estates in 9 baronies amounting to a total of 81,000 acres; in each of the estates however the acreage allocated was less than the English undertakers ( because of the cost to the undertaker).King James also exercised his influence on allocations and many wealthy towns men were rejected in favour of middle ranking lairds with experience in handling landed estates. The nine chief undertakers were all titled and eleven of the ordinary undertakers were also knights of the realm.

On the basis that the settlers would have mainly come from the estates of the undertakers the origin of Scottish settlers by County appears to have been :
Armagh , Fews barony - East Lothian, Midlothian
Cavan, Clankee barony - Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, Stirlingshire
Cavan, Tullyhunco barony - Dunbartonshire, East Lothian, Midlothian.
Donegal , Boylagh and Banagh barony - Ayrshire, Wigtonshire Kirkcudbrightshire.
Donegal, Portlough barony - Ayrshire, Dunbartonshire, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire
Fermanagh, Knockninny barony - Fifeshire, Kincardineshire, Kinrosshire
Fermanagh, Magheraboy barony - East Lothian, Lanarkshire, Midlothian,
Tyrone, Mountjoy barony - Ayrshire, East Lothian, Perthshire
Tyrone, Strabane barony - Ayrshire, Berwickshire, Linlithgowshire, Renfrewshire, Perthshire.

Until 1615 Scots were terchnically illegal migrants under Irish law dating from Queen mary`s time, this prohibited the Scots from entering the country and it was a felony to marry a Scot.The real dichotomy was that the Scots were technically foreigners until the Union in 1707 although subjects of the `British` King who governed Scotland through a separate Parliament /Estates/Privy Council and unigue Scottish law. The Scottish end of the Plantation of 1610 was commenced by Proclamation on 28 March 1609 in Edinburgh under Scottish law. For this reason Scots settlers were required to take `denization` in order that they could legally own the land they held. Another aspect of the Englishness of the Plantation was the pivotal role of the City of London who were the paymasters and whose Livery Companies (Guilds) were awarded the lands of Derry - hence renamed Londonderry.

Thats enough for now. Real detail BUT NOT THE NAMES OF SETTLERS can be found in "The Planatation of Ulster" by Philip Robinson , Gill & McMillan, 1984. ISBN 0-901905-62-3 - this is serious stuff, but very good. If you are looking for some other sound reading there is an excellent book (apart from my own of course !!) - "The Scottish Migration to Ulster in the Reign of James I" by M. Percival Maxwell, Pub. Routledge, Keegan , Paul, 1973. ISBN0-901905-44-5. A complementary book is "Ulster Emigration to Colonial America 1718-1775" Ed R.J Dickson Pub, RKP, 1966. ISBN 901-905-17-8.

Phew !

Brian Orr

----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Andrews
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Web site -

Sorry to pick nits. Not English Government, but British King ;-).
Scots are extremely allergic to the misuse of the world English.
Having said that I agree it is sloppy. I'm not sure of the History in a
number of places. Jesuits and the 1641? The 56 years between Wentworth and
the Boyne is rather skipped over, and in many ways that was then the SI got
their "soul" as a people on the move because they felt threatened (and were
they right)
Don't know enough about the Colonial period to comment
Edward Andrews

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Orr [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:50 AM
Subject: [Sc-Ir] Web site -

Hi folks

Just had a look at the page Linda kindly pointed to . It seems a bit sloppy
to me.

The Montgomery and Hamilton settlements in Co Down and Antrim were in 1606,
the first settlers were there in 1607 ie BEFORE the Ulster Plantation which
was from 1610 - 1630. The Plantation was a quite separate event sponsored
by the English Government and did not include Antrim and Down because they
were already settled; indeed it was the apparent success of these two Scots
settlers that convinced them to go ahead.

I could witter on but shant :))

Brian Orr

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