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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2005-07 > 1121099638


From: "Brian Orr" <>
Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Beatty
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:34:01 +0100
References: <200507110549.AA365559908@mail.fea.net>


Hi folks

Looks like Ive come back to the list at the right time having just completed "A Laymans Guide to the Scottish Reformation" ( at www.HeritageBooks.com ) which will explain in simple language the very complicated politics and who fought who in 17C England, Ireland and Scotland.

By way of penance, I have "The Irish Army Lists of King Charles II 1661-1685 " if anyone wants look ups. :))

Brian Orr

----- Original Message -----
From: Linda Merle
To:
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Beatty


Hi John,

>Thanks. Out of curiosity what do you mean by "the Irish Army" in mid
>1600's.

The army stationed in Ireland in the 1600s, just after Cromwell.
It was British, just like the army in Ireland in the 1600s
before Cromwell and during Cromwell. The Confederates had an
army in Ireland in the 1640s and 1650s till Cromwell defeated
it - a Catholic/Royalist army. Leading up to the struggle
between King William and James, the Catholics purged the British
army of Protestants in the late 1680s. Actually in closing
the gates of Derry, our ancestors were rebelling against the
British army, which at that time was largely Catholic. However
this war was a European one and is understood more clearly
when studied from a European context. The Pope was rooting
for King William, after all!!

As my ancestor was an
officer he wasn't mustered in locally. One purchased commissions most of the time. It really pays to
spend a lot of time reading history not only of Ireland but
of the kingdom that she was a part of: Great Britain, because
so many of her laws and customs were British. Of course
Irsih people living in a Gaeltacht who could not speak English
could avoid much of it, but this list is about Protestant
ancestors who were part of British Irish at some level so you
must study it if you want to research in it -- or you will
not get very far at all. It's best to study the British army
at length as generally a third of the people in it were Irish
(of all ethnic groups in more modern times).

Detailed accounting records of the officers in the Irish army
in the Irish army after Cromwell and before the purge are
filmed and in LDS. You can get their names, what they were paid
and where they were stationed in Ireland.

>it is said he was in Cromwell's
>Army. I do know he was Presbyterian.

Eh??? Not too likely. Do you know the history of Cromwell???
He had a very bad time with Presbyterians in Scotland. In
fact after he defeated them he shipped lots off as forced
laborers to the colonies including Massachusetts, New Jersey,
and VA. When he went to Ireland to take it back after its
ten years with the Confederates (mixed British Royalists/
Catholics), he planned on transporting all the Presbyterians
to Tipperary, I think it was. However he quickly learned
that the Presbyterians of Ireland were a different breed from
the Scots (due to their different history and experience
which had created a new ethnic group distinct in values and
tradition from Scots: the Ulster Scot!). They were happy to
support any Protestant who might help protect them from the
Catholics (Irish ones and Royalist British Catholics).

Cromwell's commonwealth failed after his death and his enemies
wrote history, as always, but in truth, he was a moderate.
He crafted a shaky government that lasted during his life and
kept the Catholics and Royalists from continuing a civil war
with the 'right wing' English Presbyterians, Puritans, Baptists
and such. He was the good guy. In Scotland he fought with
Scottish nationalists who were Presbyterian too. I've never
read a history of the British Civil War that could REALLY make
sense of it though I've read lots who tried and most of them
admit at the start that they can't really understand it.
It was very, very, very complicated -- so I'll stop here before
I say something someone disagrees with. The experts
disagree on its causes so none of us here will agree <grin>.

I got interested in it due to family involvement in England.
I also got a book on Cromwell in Ireland that's very interesting. And there's the usual stuff you read on Cromwell
in Ireland. Recently an Irishman wrote a book debunking the
idea that he massacred civilians at Drogheda and other places.
There's apparently no contemporary evidence that he did.
(As I'm not a scholar and didn't do this research, I can't
argue about it -- I can just point people interested to the
book).

However largely Cromwell brought his army with him. They were
English lads who were paid off in Irish lands. They settled
down, married Irish gals, and their grandchildren often didn't
speak any English at all and were Catholic. As most of
the Ulster land was already held by Protestants, there were
few settlements of English there -- most of the escheated
lands were in the rest of Ireland. Ditto for the Williamite
settlement in the late 1600s. This solved another problem for
Cromwell (not for King William though <grin>): his New Model
army was the first standing British army. But it was full
of radical 'right wing' English Presbyterians, Baptists,
independents (Congregationalists), etc. He didn't want them
back in England as he had no money to pay them and he was
afraid he'd lose control of the unpaid army and they'd
stage a coupe and replace him with someone more of their liking.
So he settled them in Ireland -- paying them off in land.
Many sold to their officers and moved to the colonies, esp.
the West Indies. A couple generations later they manifest
in the mainland colonies.

It's possible your ancestor served in a locally mustered group
in the 1640s and 50s. Those musterings are in LDS. They are on
film 5 miles from me, but they are not indexed, so it's a page
by page search. The more you understand about Ulster the more
you get from them, as people mustered in under their local
landlords. So if you get the name of the landlord you know
about where they were living.

Many Presbyterians did fight in King WIlliam's army in the
late 1660s, and many defended their homeland at Derry and Enniskillen.

So how old was your ancestor?? We're talking 50 year gap here.
However don't be misled by modern day armies. My ancestor
was presumely born in the late 1730 in Ayre and so was an
adult about 1750. He manifests as a young man in the Irish
army and did fight with William in the late 1790s when he
was quite old. He died coming to America in 1729. In those
days defending your country was a life time job <grin>.

From his having the cash to purchase a commission I can deduce
that he may have been from a gentle background but not the eldest son as he didn't inherit the estate in Scotland. It's possible he was from a merchant family but often they went into the family business. As he was quartermaster, this is a possiblity. The only way to squeeze clues out of family history
is to know the history. If a merchant family it was a larger,
more established one as it could afford to pay for the commission for a younger son. As part of the British army,
my ancestor was posted to Ireland where he apparently finally
settled, marrying the sister of a fellow officer. Later the
Beatties and the Clintons came to America.

His second wife was the granddaughter of one of
Cromwell's soldiers. Her family lost the earldom (I think it
was an earldom) of Lincolnshire during the British civil
war. As they were dissenters (granddad was trusted enough by
Cromwell to be an officer) they could not get their title
back after 1670 with the Restoration so they were marooned in
Ireland. They brought the ring to America in 1729 and the
grandson Dewitt Clinton apparently used it to 'seal' early
NY laws when he was governor. And apparently that was how
the two British generals Clinton discovered their long lost
cousins in America. (O'Brien mistakenly IDs these folks as
Gaelic Irish in one of his books).

The more Irish history I read the more clues I can squeeze
from my family history. You can't learn too much about it.
It's fascinating. Many primary documents are reproduced in
Hanna "The Scotch Irish" that many know about but few have
read.

We forget here on the list that the standard statement in
Irish genealogy classes about pre 1820's Irish genealogy
(before ch urch records) is that it can't be done. It can
but it takes a lot of work learning about a time and place
that were radically different from our world today and its
records. What exists, who's in them, and how to get them.
It's fascinating stuff at least. NO one's ever said Irish
history was dull!!

Linda





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