Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 2001-08 > 0998117473
From: malinda <>
Subject: Re: [Scotch-Irish] Irvines
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:51:13 -0500
Where can I find out more about the Ormonds and the Desmonds ?
Especially the Ormonds ?
> Hi John, Way back in the 'Lizabethan era (the first one,
> that is), Britain was in the spring of her youth and bursting
> out all over. Too many people in Merrye Olde England. Hey,
> but over there we had Ireland, at the time rather decimated
> down in Munsterland due to several civil wars among the local lairdies
> (the Ormonds and the Desmonds) and the really bad, I mean REALLY BAD
> idea someone had of placating the situation: kill all the cows.
> This led to the demise of I think it was 90% of the people in
> Munster in one winter. It does make sense that people whose
> sole livelihood is their cattle, if they are all killed, die too.
> The historians are still fighting about whose fault it was:
> the feuding Irish lords or the English. Whatever, everyone was
> dead, and no one was paying any rents so it was hard to heat the
> ol' mansion and buy Spanish wine. SOmething had to be done. Someone
> had the idea of talking some foolish but loyal English to moving to
> Ireland. They figured that the improvement in the genepool would lead
> to Irish that are more like the English. So they hired a marketing
> director and talked some people including the poet Edmund Spenser,
> into Moving Over. People paid good money for this honor, which is
> good since the Crown was always short of money in those days.
> They did that twice and both times the survivers of the prior
> wars did away with most of the settlers or planters in Munster and
> bred with the rest till they were just more Irish. But it did
> bring some more English surnames to Ireland and perhaps a lingering
> fondness for fine china with flowers. I at least am fond of such,
> much as was my Irish grannie who would have been very happy shopping
> in Holywood near Belfast (lots of china) . You've heard of the
> term plantation? One is populated with planters. They called
> James Town in Virgina the same. It was a plantation. ANd then there
> was Plymoth Plantation. The term colony later was prefered.
> So when King Jamie decided to try the same with the huge amount of
> land that had defaulted to him in Ulster in the early 1600's, it was
> of course also called a Plantation. His was the public plantation.
> Antrim and Down were private plantations. People with the courage
> to come over -- after the debacle of the Elizabethan plantations in
> Munster it wasn't exactly easy -- were planters. And planter stock
> is us. The descendents of the planters in Ulster.
> Linda Merle
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "John Erwin" <>
> Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:20:55 -0500
> >What is planter stock?
> >John Erwin
> >> Hi John,
> >> >Can anyone tell me where the Irvines lived in N IRE. I've been told but
> >have never proven that they lived in the CO Antrim in the 1600's and early
> >> I'm sure there were some there. The border clan was dispersed in
> >> the early 1600's by King James. They fled to Uslter. It wasn't
> >> NI then. NI didn't exist till 1922. I have Irwins in Northern
> >> England. McLaysaght says some ERWIN/IRWINs are Irish: a sept
> >> of O'Hirwin (o hEireamnoin ) in Offaly, but most are of planter
> >> stock, he agrees. Bell "Book of Ulster Surnames" also says they
> >> were in Ireland in the early 1600's.
> >> Have you checked the Hearth Money rolls and Pendar??
> >> Linda Merle