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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2001-06 > 0992652341


From: Charles Clark <>
Subject: Re: [Scotch-Irish] NELIS
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:45:41 +1200
References: <200106151510.AA267845842@mail.fea.net>




wrote:

> On the topic of pseudo research, lemme check O'Hart "Irish Pedigrees".
> According to him I'm descended from a few kings too but of course
> I can't prove it, and Charlie Clarke laughs at me every time I
> reference him.....

Tee hee hee!

There's genealogy and then there's genealogy. and then there's pseudo-genealogy.
I've got all three varieties in my background, and a lot of fun I've had
separating them out. One of the better sites for getting to grips with all this
in the Irish context is John McLauglhlin's Clan McLaughlin website at
http://members.aol.com/lochlan/clanmac.htm
And yes, I do claim a (genuine and documented) connection with the lines that go
(or are claimed to go) back as far as Niall of the Nine Hostages, who was killed
on a raid in about 400 AD in the Loire valley, so they say, against the Romans.
See The Ulster Clans, written by Revs. T. H. Mullin and J.E. Mullin, part on line
at http://home.epix.net/~ramcl/ancient.html
Quote:
"It has been said that Irish history, as apart from legend and romance, begins
with Niall of the Nine Hostages, so called because of the pledges he wrung from
nine nations. Niall was a tall, fair-haired blue-eyed hero of Gaelic blood, who
became High King of Ireland in A.D. 379. A renowned warrior, much of his life was
spent in predatory excursions against neighbouring countries such as England,
Wales and France. It is possible that it was on one of these raiding expeditions
that Saint Patrick was carried off from Britain to become a slave who herded
sheep on Slemish Mountain for his pagan master. Niall died on one of these
military forays to France in A.D. 405. "

But as for the Heremon stuff that for the fairies (and if Linda believes in it,
then fairy she must be! Or a leprechaun, or something, from down the bottom of my
garden) For the Milesian legends, see John McLaughlin again, at
http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/legends.htm
BUT NOTE JOHN'S COMMENT THAT
"4. According to O'Rahilly (Irish history and Mythology) the true ancestor figure
of the northern Gaedil (i.e., line of Heremon) was Tuathal Teachtmar (81). The
earliest figure in the pedigrees most historians and genealogists agree was
strictly historical, however, was Nial Naoighiallach (of the Nine Hostages-91)

My own connection is with John's chart at
http://members.aol.com/lochlan4/chart1.htm
Amy Young, in her "Three Hundred Years in Inishowen", has the following (all of
which can be referenced to John McLaughlin's chart):
"Donald McBryan oge was the son of Bryan oge, and he had a son Owen, who died in
his father's lifetime, leaving six sons: Donaghy Buy, Domnhall, Phelimy, Peter,
Turlogh and Shane Crone. Donaghy Buy died in 1697, leaving two sons: Henry, died
abroad 1709; and Brian, died abroad 1713. Domnhall (or Daniel) and Peter were
destined for the Roman Catholic priesthood, and as there was no means in Ireland
at that time of preparing them for this, they were dispatched to the Continent,
probably to Spain, to enter a college.
The vessel in which they sailed was shipwrecked on the English coast and the
two young men were taken to the house of a nobleman, who interested himself in
their fate, and offered, if they would conform to the religion of the English
Church, to have them educated at one of the English Universities. Peter refused
and continued his journey, and was eventually ordained a priest. Domnhall changed
his opinions (and his name to Daniel), went to the English University and in due
time was ordained a clergyman of the established church. In 1672 he was appointed
to the parish of Clonmany, where his brother Peter was now Roman Catholic priest.

The two brothers found themselves in very opposite circumstances. Daniel had
a large well-built church, but no congregation; for even at the present day the
Protestant population of the parish is practically non-existent. Peter, on the
other hand, had a congregation numbering thousands, but their only places of
worship were 'little altars' which stood by the seaside or on the mountaintops.
His house was a miserable little thatched cabin by the seashore, in the townland
of Crossconnell.
The brothers lived to a good old age, and many tales are told of them. On
one occasion, on a Sunday, they met on the way to their respective services.
Domnhall remarked: 'One going over, the other coming back.' Not so,' said Peter.
'The one going up, and the other going down, and may God judge between us which
is which.'
Daniel built for himself a beautiful residence, known as Dresden, situated
in one of the loveliest spots in the whole of Inishowen. Here, later, lived the
Rev. Dr. Chichester, Rector of Clonmany, 1754, who died in 1815. The house was
not occupied after 1841 and is now in ruins. Daniel died first and Peter mourned
deeply for him. Their mother lived for many years after Domnhall's change of
faith, which never ceased to be a sorrow and grief to her. She seems to have been
of a poetical turn of mind, and has immortalised her sorrow in verse, of which
the following is an extract.
'Can it be spoken
How my heart is broken,
by thy fall, Oh! Domnhall, from the ancient faith.
With less of sorrow
Could I view tomorrow,
My lost one herding on the mountain brown
Than strange doctrine teaching,
And new tenets preaching,
At yon lordly window, in his silken gown.'

(Taken mostly from Machtochair's "Inishowen")

So much for that, now let's go to the other end of the Island:

> Jaysus, if you turn up in Donegal with this stuff they'll know you
> are a "souper": ie an Irish Prod who presumedly converted to get a
> bowl of soup <grin>. Only Protestants quote the Bible chapter and
> verse.

We all have a variety of rellies, from a variety of sources. I have a Fitzgerald
who was a labourer in County Kerry in 1848, but his son married a "Scripture
Reader" in the Church of Ireland. No documentation, but I would not be at all
surprised if he was a "souper"! Mind you, in famine times I'd have converted for
a free meal too, I must say

> I think this could be mean they were
> >Huguenots, since I have never heard of the Anglo-Normans as being very
> >religious.
>
> What? They built huge cathedrals. They endowed monasteries.

Yup, so they did. They also went on Crusades to rid the Holy Land of Infidels.
Richard the Lion Heart, Saladdin and all that. They had religion as bad as any of
us in their own way.
Not perhaps really appropriate to speak of the Anglo-Normans as a separate entity
in this sort of respect, they were all part of Western Christendom

> It's okay if your ancestors were Irish. You can stay <grin>.
> Some of mine were too. Which reminds me how thirsty I am. I gotta
> find a place with decent Guinness around here.....I attended a dinner
> meeting at the Massachusetts Genealogical Society, Worcester Chapter,
> and began talking to an Irish American. He had gone back and found
> the cemetery where his ancesters were buried. He loved it. He began
> to describe it. Hey! I knew that cemetery! It's in Louth! It's the
> one where parts of Edward the Bruce are buried (other parts they took
> to London). We laughed and laughed. Wonderful cemetery. Excellent
> view. I hope his ancestors and Eddie the Bruce can enjoy the view.

Of course once you go back past the Reformation, there gets to be no difference
between Irish and Scotch-Irish. We're all the same lot, who seem to have
forgotten that in our hurry to start fighting with each other.

Charlie



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