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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 2001-03 > 0985301859

From: malinda <>
Subject: Re: [Scotch-Irish] English Customs (Caveat emptor))
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:57:39 -0600
References: <> <><000801c0b216$6a5edb80$> <>

Hello Daphne,

I descend from the Dudley Suttons too via my Washington line through
Col John Washington (great grandfather of George Washington).

It's spelled Plantagenet. The Washington lineage can be found at in the free WFT d'bases and at the following url

It's not the one I wanted, but it's the one I could find fastest's another. Just click on Margaret Butler and you can go
back to Alfred the Great and beyond.

What's your descent ?


Daphne Kilbourn-Jacob wrote:

> Dear Paul and List,
> Have gotten some e-mail accusing me of 'ethnic bias'. As I pointed out
> in my post, I feel strongly about the aggressive ruling classes which
> have colonized the US, Australia, India, Africa, not to mention, annexed
> Scotland and NI. These were my ancestors. It's a reverse snobbery (and
> my own political ideology) but had I descended from the English that did
> the work, produced goods and services, my feelings would be quite
> different. I thought I made that clear in my post, but evidently not.
> BTW, my English ancestors came to the Mass Bay Colony in the 1600's and
> were the younger sons of the Dudley's, Dickenson, Fields etc. The Dudley
> -Suttons' lineage goes back to the Empress Matilda, the King Henrys'
> and the Plantagenants (sp.?). Also, King Malcolm(?) of Scotland. Don't
> have the genealogy in front of me, sorry for the vagueness.
> Accuse me of anti-classism, but forgive my vagueness about the "ethnic"
> discrimination; this is probably my own fault for not being more precise
> At any rate, this discussion has digressed from the point I was trying
> to make: If you want the truth about your family history, do real
> genealogy. If you want to satisfy your personal mythology, stay away
> from the research because what emerges may be painful.
> Daphne Jacob
> >
> > I think what Daphne says is a good example of the danger in trying to neatly
> > characterize cultural groups. I admire her for being forthcoming about her
> > former preconceived notions. But who hasn't been surprised sometimes when
> > their genealogical research turns up something unexpected?
> >
> > But I wonder if Daphne is listening to herself. When she speaks of "...the
> > English sense of superiority and aggression" I wince. Not because I am
> > English, which I am not, but because this sort of characterization seems to
> > be so absurd, especially since she has just warned us against this kind of
> oversimplification. <<Does she mean that all English people have a sense
> of
> superiority and are aggressive?>> Or just some of them? And if just some
> of
> > them how many? And if not in this century which century?
> >
> > Paul
> > From: "Daphne Kilbourn-Jacob" <>
> > > Dear Oleoghain and other List Members,
> > > About a year ago, I received an extensive amount of genealogical data
> > > from a cousin who is a Morman. It showed that at least 1/4 of my
> * ancestors were among the <<English minor peerage>>. As an Anglophobe I
> went
> > > into shock and shared my feelings with the List. Lots of members
> > > responded with sympathy and common sense. I survived. The main point I
> > > want to make is that when we undertake the search for our ancestry, we
> > > are taking the risk of discovering that we are not necessarily going
> > > to affirm our preconceived ideas about our identities. We will
> > > probably find out that some of our forebearers were inimical to our
> > > ideologies and painful to our self images. In my case, I felt and
> > > identified strongly with my Scottish and Scotch-Irish ancestors'
> > > struggles and ideals. The new data required a lot of self re-examination
> > > and work to find out how the English sense of superiority and aggression
> > > affected my identity. I was able to understand where some of my less
> > > desireable traits (and strengths) fitted in, but it was difficult.
> > > There is a risk in seeking to rediscover our
> > > personal pasts. If we want the truth of our histories, genealogy is
> > > the way to pursue this. If we want preserve our own personal mythology,
> > > it is perhaps better not to take the risk of researching family history.
> > > Finally, the vast majority of the English were laborers, serfs or
> > > servants; they produced the goods and services
> > > that the upper classes took in as rents and taxes. They did not make the
> > > decision to colonize other countries.
> > > Regards,
> > > Daphne Jacob

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