Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 1999-07 > 0931510497
From: "Charles.Clark" <>
Subject: Re: Irishmen soldiering for other countries
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 20:54:57 +1200
linda Merle wrote:
> Hi Charles,
> >Do you mean I've been on the wrong list all along? Point out that it's
> >not quite as simple as that: some of those who count as Wild Geese DO
> >come within our ambit.
> I'm sure there are those exceptions. I don't read books on Wild Geese,
> so if they are pointed out there, I am not aware of them.
I'm only just beginning on the subject myself.
My ancestors were
> fighting in King William's army and even the Scots side were not Jacobites.
My ancestors were on both sides, my father's ancestors mostly with
William, my mother's with the MacDonnells, the Earl of Antrim of course
being the fellow who got the Derry gates shut in his face. And the
Stewart-Moores are said to have fled Scotland after Culloden
> We're Whigs. That's goes for most of us here (who are not here in order to
> keep an eye on the Prods <grin>). The Irish (aka Roman Catholic, disenfranchised,
> unwanted masses) left Ireland while many of mine were coming in. There was
> a shortage of Protestants (17th century). Eighteenth century we were not
> rushing off to fight in religions wars. We was fighting ol' Bonie. Now I cannot
> speak for y our ancestors, but mine were not fighting FOR ol' Bonie.
If the Stewart-Moores (or rather the Stewart ancestor) fled Scotland
after Culloden, it follows that he was on ole Bonnie Prince Charlie's
side. And although the descent is not proven, it seems likely a previous
Stuart was killed in the King's service at Auldearn in 1645, ie with
> In particular if Elizabeth I used the term
> >Scotch-Irish (or damned Scotch-Irish, as I once heard it said) to refer
> >to the MacDonnells, who have always been catholic, and have included a
> >number of Wild Geese in their number, then the book "The Wild Geese of
> >the Antrim MacDonnells", by Hector MacDonnell, which I have just
> >obtained on the recommendation of Anne () would appear to
> >be somewhere in that ambiguous region between the two cultures.
> Oh, yeh, but y ou know how Ireland is. You dig with your left foot or your
> right. No waffling here. So the highlanders had to decide what foot they
> dug with that tended to determine your ethnic identity and political affiliation.
Don't accept that; there's much more muddying than anyone would ever
believe, and I am sure it is all most frustrating for all the historians
who would like to split everyone up into two sides and go from there. An
example from this current century: two twin brothers, James and Henry
Stuart emigrated to Australia in 1874, and went sheepfarming in
Henry's son, the novelist Francis Stuart (of whom I have written quite a
bit: he is the family difficulty!) returned with his mother to Ireland
in 1902 after his father killed himself, was brought up in the south of
Ireland, county Meath, converted to catholicism when he married Iseult,
daughter of Maud Gonne, fought in the IRA during the civil war, went to
Germany during WWII, and is generally someone that one would think of as
Irish (though his parents were both very much from Antrim)
James's younger son, Alexander Maitland Stuart (Lal), who returned to
Ireland when his father James sold Rockwood in 1911 or thereabouts,
after his first marriage ended in divorce, took as his second wife Betty
Clark, nee Pelly, whose daughters (ie Lal's stepdaughters) Patricia,
Nancy and Sally (Elizabeth) all married Sirs, and did very well for
themselves. In particular, Nancy married Sir George Clark, 3rd Baronet,
who was Grand Master of the Orange Lodge of Ireland and later Imperial
Grand Master of the Imperial Grand Orange Council of the World, ie head
of all the oranges.
So in the one family, in the son and step-grand-daughter of the two twin
brothers we go all the way from Irish outcast Francis Stuart, to the
very centre of the Orange Order with Sir George Clark's wife Nancy.
For myself, I find that my father's people are basically Orange, though
not strongly so in most cases except for the said Patricia, Nancy and
Sally, whose father G.W.N. Clark is a cousin (ain't Ireland
complicated!) But they include the Lenox-Conynghams, who were involved
in the gun-running in 1914, when the UVF brought in a trainload of guns
from Germany, and various members of the B-specials etc.(who would
probably have quite happily shot up your Swatragh Norrises!)
Until recently I had thought that that was more or less my family
heritage. But as I have been researching my mother's family, including
the sheepfarming James and Henry Stuart, I find everything much more
ambiguous. All Antrim protestants, but with a fair bit of catholic mixed
in, as befits people who have mixed with the MacDonnells, who held their
lands through the centuries largely by being ambiguous. And there are
Irwins from county Roscommon, who seem to have changed religion
according to which way the wind was blowing. "The representative of the
Bonshaw Irwins, who have the family histories, concluded that
Christopher's father's religion seems to have sat pretty lightly on his
shoulders; that he seems to have been prepared to provision both sides
in the (1641) rebellion, provided they were able to pay him in cash, and
it may be that in Williamite wars Christopher behaved in the same way.
He was a substantial landowner or leaseholder, and grazier in sheep and
cattle, with several farms on lease. He also seems to have lent out
money on occasions, sometimes to Irish neighbours, and had to default
when payment was made in payments. If he had little hesitation in
foreclosing on Irish neighbours who had borrowed from him, he likewise
pursued through the Courts, Militia officers who had stolen his horses
during the Williamite war, and who sought to justify this by suggesting
that Christopher as a catholic had chosen to remain under the protection
of the Irish garrsion at Donamon Castle, and that the horses had been
legally commandeered by the Army. It is interesting that almost the same
allegations were made against his father in the 1641 rebellion."
> So the ones who identified as Catholic forgot they were Scots (because
> Scots are Prods). There's lots of people in the middle of course .
> I got a Robert NORRIS, living in Swatragh, Londonderry, who
> married a Catherine DOWLING. the Dowlings were chieftains (once) in
> County Wicklow. This was 1820 -- maybe Catherine's ancestors included
> some Wild Geese. Donno yet. So maybe I do have Wild Geese...or at
> least a swan!!
> >So I am not saying you are wrong (wouldn't dare!) but just muddying the
> >waters a little. Studying anything in Ireland was never meant to be
> >simple! And yes we mostly do love cognac.
> It sure wasn't-- though I do recall some lads on the political lists really
> knew a lot about the Wild Geese. One of the things that did interest me
> is this. At the end of the Williamite Wars, Aughrim, the Irish army
> wsa given the choice of going into exile to France, or going home. The
> way they did it is they marched them past some pole, and they went right
> or left. Well, all the regiments elected to go into exile, except the Ulster
> regiments. They all elected to take an oath (I beleive) and stay. Massive
> difference in how Irish lads felt at that time between Ulstermen and everyone
> else. Why? Never heard it answered. (Info if from Macauley "History of
> What is really sad (to me!) is the Irish published books about their folk
> who fought with King James...King William's army I still search for!
Agreed.And it's still the same. the Ruth Dudley Edwards book on the
Orange Order is a rare item by comparison with the amount of publishing
done on the nationalist side
> Where's the cognac?
Actually you are slipping: it should be Old Bushmills 16 year single
All this talk is making me thirsty. My EX --
> now there is a guy whose ancestors fought for Ol' Boney, and who did
> like cognac as well!!
> Linda Merle
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