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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 1998-03 > 0889806830


From: "Dorothy Chance" <>
Subject: Re: resonating etc.
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:33:50 -0600


Your post is heartbreaking. Lady Bountiful and "Charity" go hand in hand
with paternalism and condescending bigotry, IMO.

What is a better way?

-----Original Message-----
From: Virginia W. Beck <>
To: <>;
JRose10700 <>
Cc: <>;
<>
Date: Friday, March 13, 1998 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: resonating etc.

>Well said, and absolutely logical. My parents were not church-goers. Dad
>was an atheist, but never tried to persuade others to his view. Mother's
>only childhood experience with church was when her nearly destitute mother
>(abandoned, and too busy providing for her nine girls by doing other
>people's washing & ironing 7 days a week to have time for church) would
>take them on Christmas Eve to accept a packet of "gifts" provided for the
>poor children. Church members also brought wrapped gifts to be passed out
>to their own children on these festive occasions. The memory of that
>humiliating experience, when she and her sisters opened gifts containing an
>orange, a few nuts & candies , and an item or two of clothing (the only
>gifts they would receive), while she watched the members' children open
>packages containing (to her eyes) beautiful dolls, or other lovely toys,
>could still bring tears to her eyes when she was an old lady. I am sure
the
>church members viewed themselves as generous and charitable (they didn't
>HAVE to give anything!), but my mother (about 10) saw only
>self-righteousness and hypocrisy. Though she always professed a belief in
a
>"higher power", she could never bring herself to trust or believe in any
>organized religion. I did all my spiritual investigation in the various
>churches of friends, both Christian & non-Christian, and, in the end, have
>been unable to suspend logic sufficiently to come to an unquestioning
belief
>in any of them. I appreciate and respect all those who sincerely and
>honestly follow theirs. My husband's Baptist parents were a veritable
model
>for born-again Christians, and led exemplary lives. I leave to your
>imagination the only conversation my Dad and my father-in-law ever had on
>the subject of unquestioning belief and acceptance of every word in the
>Bible! but both were polite, and they remained good friends. Ginia.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Edward Andrews <>
>To: JRose10700 <>
>Cc: <>;
> <>
>Date: Friday, March 13, 1998 3:11 AM
>Subject: Re: resonating etc.
>
>
>>JRose10700 wrote:
>>>
>>> In a message dated 98-03-12 20:46:30 EST, you write:
>>>
>>> << 'll never forget the look
>>> of hurt and uncomprehension on my 11 year old daughter's face when she
>>> was refused communion at St. Patrick's in NYC. We're Christians, who
>>> worship in a Methodist congregation and are used to the celebration of
>>> an open communion table. >>
>>>
>>> "Closed communion" - which Catholics as well as many Protestant churches
>>> practice, can be a complexity to explain.
>>> I am of the belief that anyone who shares the samve views about the
>Lord's
>>> Eucharist should be able to partake.
>>
>> I find this view - which of course is the official teaching of the
>>Roman Church, and justification for closed Communion somewhat at odds
>>with the
>>syncratic views in the post which began this discussion.
>> For some years the Iona Community have been arguing that when Mass is
>>celebrated in Iona or at events like the Haddington Pilgrimage, there
>>should be an open Communion. The reply has always been that unless you
>>believe what we believe then you cannot receive. It is as much a
>>matter of discipline as doctrine.
>> As one who was at both what was alleged to be the first Mass said in
>>the Abbey grounds, and then in the Abbey itself since the Reformation,
>>I have watched this discussion with keen interest.
>> Back in 1966 the Abbey in Iona was under an interdict, It was against
>>Church law for a priest to say mass there. However two priests, who
>>were not from the Diocese decided that they would do it, and as the
>>terms of the deed under which the Abbey is held makes it necessary for
>>the premises to be made available for the exercise of Worship of any
>>branch of Christ's Church, we facilitated their service.
>> At that time the Communion celebrated regularly in Iona was
>>according to the rite of the Church of Scotland. It was an open table,
>>and on occasions I either served Roman Catholic Priests, who were
>>receiving, or were aware of Roman Catholic Priests being present who
>>did receive.
>> In my present charge, I make a point in using the formula
>>"This is the Table of the Lord, not the Table of any one Church, we
>>therefore invite those baptized into Christ in any tradition to join
>>with us in this Christ's gift to His Church".
>> It is not however for us to criticize those who for whatever reason
>>do not feel able either to join with other people at a Eucharistic
>>celebration, or who do not feel able to extend eucharistic hospitality
>>to others. These issues are between them and God.
>> At the same time, I would have little sympathy for those who seek to
>>intrude into the rites of any other faith without making enquiries as
>>to whether or not they are welcome. We do not walk into other people's
>>houses and expect to be able to sit down for a meal with them. If they
>>invite us in, that is fine, but we are guests.
>>The fact that my Theology would claim that I am part of the one family
>>of Christ, does not entitle me to intrude into the domestic
>>arrangements of those who do not have the same view.
>>
>> The parents of the child who was refused communion must accept
>>responsibility for not only the event, but also the consequences.
>>
>> In the Temple in Jerusalem, at the boundary between the Court of the
>>Gentiles and the Court of the Women there were notices which said
>>words to this effect (I can't be bothered looking up the reference)
>>Gentiles who are found past this point will be responsible for their
>>own death which they will have caused.
>> It may not be an attitude which we resonate with. It is however one
>>that we have to accept historically happened.
>>
>>
>>Edward Andrews
>>--
>>St Nicholas Buccleuch Parish Church Dalkeith
>>Visit our Web site
>>http://www.btinternet.com/~stnicholas.buccleuch/index.htm
>>
>
>

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