Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 1998-01 > 0885766125
From: Billshau29 <>
Subject: Re: Scotch-Irish and Irish Emigration to PA Before 1790
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:08:45 EST
In a message dated 98-01-24 20:12:05 EST, writes:
Hi Bill, that's what I suspect.
>For those not familiar with it, S.W.A.G is an acronym for the > following:
> Scientific Wild A** Guess.
I'm not sure how you'd tell. On the censuses the place of birth is
just "Ireland". You cannot tell by surnames. Lots of Irish surnames
in Presbyterian cemeteries in PA, some of them related to me, like
Haggerty. So you can't tell by that. My brother in law's surname
is Campbell - but in the immortal words of his dad "I'm an Irish Mick--
and proud of it". You could count the folks on the Presbyrerian church
rolls but you miss the unchurched (and the rolls are not complete).
You also can't tell the difference between Scots and Ulster Scots.
Assuming you can tell somewhere what folks considered themselves,
you still have "greyness". Like an ancestor of mine was born in
Ayr, lived there for 40 years, fought at the Battle of the Boyne,
gotta a landgrant in Antrim, lived in Antrim from 1691 to 1721,
then split for the Americas, dying on the way, alas. Was he Ulster
Scots or Scots? I donno. His widow and and sons ended up in one
of those border settlements the English made to protect the English
from the Indians -- they figured the family was Ulster Scots enough
to take out a few Indians <I duck the rotten tomatoes). As for what
they considered themselves -- we don't know.
If he's come up with a way to tell that I don't know about I sure
want to know.
You make some good points here, but there is an easier way to determine
that Purvis is not quite accurate. For starters, the Census of 1790 which
Purvis used lacks at least two types of people - Indentured servants and
slaves. I can't prove it, but I believe that there were a considerable number
of Usequebaugh stills in active production in Western Pa., and the still
owners wern't the least bit bashful about shooting Revenoors, imagined or
Frankly, I tend to beleive contemporary statements like "Wow, there's
a hell of a lot of Scotch-Irish around here!". Okay, no one said that,
but a few said something close. For Western PA we got a number of
contemporary sources including Massey Harbison. We also have records
of much Presbyterian activity in the area -- and not much Methodist
or Anglican. We also have Catholic records btw. Smells mighty
Scotch-Irish to me. Or maybe Scots. The two are hard to distingish
esp. from the distance of 2-300 years.
You could get an excellent reading today, but only if you can access the
right records. The major political parties have some excellent, and current,
surveys which do contain considerable ethnic data, but they are not about to
let them go. Church records, which you mentioned, could be a valuable
adjunct, but I'd have to raise a question today about their accuracy and
veracity. I do know that in my area, the Presbyterians have become
considerably weaker, and the Anglicans are growing like there is no tomorrow.
As far as the Catholic records go, I've never really trusted them.
This whole question goes back to theme I've been preaching since I joined
the List: Give your references at least a cursory check before you cite them.
If they pertain to Ireland, the Irish, or the Ulster Scots, they are going to
be biased to a considerable degree. Unfortunately neither the Catholics nor
the Presbyterians have been able to state a black and white fact without
putting their own spin on it.
I've taken a number of very close looks at the Census data pertinent to
your KELLYs. If you take a very good look at them again, you will begin to
see where your grannie and her sister (I think) had some fun with the Census
|Re: Scotch-Irish and Irish Emigration to PA Before 1790 by Billshau29 <>|