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Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 1997-12 > 0881823344


From: Billshau29 <>
Subject: Re: Meaning of Scotch-Irish
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:55:44 EST


In a message dated 97-12-09 17:32:00 EST,
writes:

<< >
> Prior to 1707, and the union of the Parliaments, the only way in
> which Scots could get to the colonies was through Ireland (one of the
> causes of the union was the financial disaster for the state of
> Scotland that an attempt to found a colony was.
>
> What you are impling here, if I understand you, is that many a Scot
> emigrated to the colonies by way of Ireland, and further, did so without
> spending any appreciable length of time in Ireland. If this was so, why
are
> some individuals so heaven bent for trying to imply some Irish ancestry?

No, merely that Scots in America are likely to be seen as Irish by
those outside the group.

Would you make the same postulation if half the passengers on a given
ship spoke with one dialect, and the other half spoke with a totally different
dialect? To the best of my knowledge, there have not been many instances
where the Scottish BURR was construed to be the Irish BROGUE. The fact that
the ship may have embarked from Belfast is not indicative of the passengers
being of any particular nationality.

> The migration of the Scots from Ireland to America seems to have
> really commenced in 1712.

I believe the Irish migration started around 1630 or so.

> It is a moot point whether those outside this community would have
> seen them as Irish or Scot*/Irish or as Scots. I would argue that
> they were seen as Irish, but that in my opinion
> It is I would suggest, impossible to quantify the exact ratios of
> S/I to Scots, unless you count up the shipping lists.

I agree with your postulation, but the shipping and passenger lists just
do not contain the information you want. Further, the Port of Embarkation has
no bearing on the Townland/Civil Parish of the passenger.

>
> I don't think an accurate count of the shipping lists would make, or
have
> made a difference in your postulation. Many of these celtic immigrants
went
> to Fort Pitt Pittsburgh), and once they got there, they were either Irish,
or
> Scottish, and not a hyphenated nationality.

Using Shipping lists you can tell roughly the proportions from each
Province.

Have you taken the time to review say 100 or so Shipping Lists? I've
done this with the idea of preparing a good comprehensive database that could
be used by everyone. The information regarding Townland and Civil Parish just
is not there.

> Dickson has gone some distance in doing this over a 60 year period.
> I do not know if a similar work to Dickson exists about Scotland, but
> he claims that several hundred Thousand traveled from Ireland to
> America.
>
> Given that 38% of households in Ulster in 1732 were Catholic, and
> that the main pre 1815 emigration ports were in Ulster (Duffy et all
> 1997), even if there were not economic constraints on the Catholics
> emigrating, that by far the greatest majority of people who emigrated
> were Presbyterians (who had a motive - persecution to depart)

Edward, there is no question but that the Presbyterians in Ireland were
persecuted. There is also no question but that the Catholics were persecuted,
first by the Episcopalians (Anglicans) for maybe 100 years, and then by the
Presbyterians for about 250 or so years. How can you possibly overlook this?

> In the light of the foregoing I would suggest that:-
> 1, For general purposes that for want of evidence to the contrary,
> that we can count S/I and Presbyterian as being coterminous
> 2. That the majority of emigrants prior to say 1815 were S/I
> I would suggest that this debate is therefore rather futile.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with Point 1. I disagree, though, with Point
2.
> You are most probably correct regarding the Province of Ulster. But
Edward,
> this takes in only 6, or 9 of the 32 counties (depending on whether you
> consider the makeup of Ulster today). While people were leaving Ulster,
> others were leaving the other three Provinces and in significant numbers.

I would be grateful for any evidence to back up this contention.
Duffy et all 1997, suggests that there were as many as 50,000 pa S/I
gong to the colonies by the 1770s. They dismisses the Irish
from other provinces as being an insignificant.

Then you are reading something with a horrible bias.

I'm really just starting to scratch the surface of Irish History. But,
what I have found regardless of whether I'm looking at a time frame of 1,000
BC, or the present day, I have to read study TWO versions - one written by a
Catholic, and one written by a Proddy. Both factions have twisted the facts
to suit their particular objectives. This deliberate twisting of factual
material drove me up a wall during my college days, and through my day to day
work, and it does so in this List. A short while back, you wrote your views
on revisionist history, and I agreed with them.

Bill Shaughnessy

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