Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 1997-12 > 0881691242
From: "Edward Andrews" <>
Subject: Re: Meaning of Scotch-Irish
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:25:03 0
> From: Billshau29 <>
> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:57:44 EST
> To: , ,
> Subject: Re: Meaning of Scotch-Irish
> Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
> In a message dated 97-12-08 21:59:32 EST,
> << Lets try this way of looking at it.
> We can assume - statistically that almost all Scots from say 1600
> to 1800 were Presbyterians. (Webster 1755 enumerated R.Cs as 16490
> or 1% of the Population. With Episcopalians as 12,000 in 1790. (0.8
> of Pop.Currie et all 1977.))
> You didn't give an estimate of the corresponding number of Scots, but you
> have indicated, as I have been maintaining, that there just weren't that many.
Here I am speaking about the whole population of Scotland.
> Prior to 1707, and the union of the Parliaments, the only way in
> which Scots could get to the colonies was through Ireland (one of the
> causes of the union was the financial disaster for the state of
> Scotland that an attempt to found a colony was.
> What you are impling here, if I understand you, is that many a Scot
> emigrated to the colonies by way of Ireland, and further, did so without
> spending any appreciable length of time in Ireland. If this was so, why are
> some individuals so heaven bent for trying to imply some Irish ancestry?
No, merely that Scots in America are likely to be seen as Irish by
those outside the group.
> The migration of the Scots from Ireland to America seems to have
> really commenced in 1712.
> It is a moot point whether those outside this community would have
> seen them as Irish or Scot*/Irish or as Scots. I would argue that
> they were seen as Irish, but that in my opinion
> It is I would suggest, impossible to quantify the exact ratios of
> S/I to Scots, unless you count up the shipping lists.
> I don't think an accurate count of the shipping lists would make, or have
> made a difference in your postulation. Many of these celtic immigrants went
> to Fort Pitt Pittsburgh), and once they got there, they were either Irish, or
> Scottish, and not a hyphenated nationality.
Using Shipping lists you can tell roughly the proportions from each
> Dickson has gone some distance in doing this over a 60 year period.
> I do not know if a similar work to Dickson exists about Scotland, but
> he claims that several hundred Thousand traveled from Ireland to
> Given that 38% of households in Ulster in 1732 were Catholic, and
> that the main pre 1815 emigration ports were in Ulster (Duffy et all
> 1997), even if there were not economic constraints on the Catholics
> emigrating, that by far the greatest majority of people who emigrated
> were Presbyterians (who had a motive - persecution to depart)
> In the light of the foregoing I would suggest that:-
> 1, For general purposes that for want of evidence to the contrary,
> that we can count S/I and Presbyterian as being coterminous
> 2. That the majority of emigrants prior to say 1815 were S/I
> I would suggest that this debate is therefore rather futile.
> I agree wholeheartedly with Point 1. I disagree, though, with Point 2.
> You are most probably correct regarding the Province of Ulster. But Edward,
> this takes in only 6, or 9 of the 32 counties (depending on whether you
> consider the makeup of Ulster today). While people were leaving Ulster,
> others were leaving the other three Provinces and in significant numbers.
I would be grateful for any evidence to back up this contention.
Duffy et all 1997, suggests that there were as many as 50,000 pa S/I
gong to the colonies by the 1770s. They dismisses the Irish
from other provinces as being an insignificant.
Reading of Dickson about the activities of the Shipping agents
might remind you of why this is.
> Edward Andrews
> St Nicholas Buccleuch Parish Church Dalkeith, Midlothian Scotland
> Visit our Web site http://www.btinternet.com/~stnicholas.buccleuch/index.htm
St Nicholas Buccleuch Parish Church Dalkeith, Midlothian Scotland
Visit our Web site http://www.btinternet.com/~stnicholas.buccleuch/index.ht
|Re: Meaning of Scotch-Irish by "Edward Andrews" <>|