Scotch-Irish-L ArchivesArchiver > Scotch-Irish > 1997-12 > 0881478387
From: linda Merle <>
Subject: Re: Ulster 1642
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 23:06:27 -0800
It's too bad the list has driven off everyone who might have provided
a definitive answer.
You really cannot understand Irish history unless you understand English
Hostory. This was really brought home to me reading "A History of
Ireland" by A J Otway-Ruthven, Professor of History at the University of
In 1641 the English Revolution began. This meant the English were
involved in their own internal affairs. It didn't take the Irish long
to realize that the English were "off line" and so they could take
of the situation to overthrow the English. The English Gov's
in Ireland,- were the British colonists and the gentry. Most of these
by chance, also Protestant. Furthermore, the political situation in
Ireland and England was much more complex than the over simplification
of it that is all (at most) that peopl get -- ie there was at one time
early in, ***5*** different political factions in Ireland. Not two.
During the Civil War the English were unable to raise an army to rescue
the IRISH COLONY -- Not "the Plantation". So the Scots sent in an army.
was act one of a very complex ten years until Cromwell did settle
> My question here is, What was the composition of the Scottish army?
Unfortunately, the list has driven off the Scottish historians, so you
may have to read a book of Scots history to find this out.
You are wrong about this being the period of the Black Oath. That
in the days of Charles. In 1639 Wentworth raised an army of 3000 to
force Preshbyterians to take the Black Oath, NOT during the English
Civil War. That would make no sense: Cromwell was an independent, a
So he would not be wanting Presbyterians to swear allegiance to a prayer
book he didn't beleive in. Adair fled back to Scotland during this
as did an unknown number of others. Wentworth was impeached and executed
by parliament in 1641 -- so he wasn't able to force Presbyterians to
swear to an oath: he lacked his head.
See "A History of Ulster" by Bardon or Robert Kee "The Most Distressful
Presbyerianism was not established in Ulster. It was tolerated by
though because of his bad experience with the Presbyterians of Scotland,
he was at first included to send them to Connaught as well. However the
Presbyterians of Ulster were loyal to him (unlike their Scots
so he decided on second thought to tolerate them. He had nice lists
up of the people he intended to "get" -- which are handy for
Some of these people are identified in "Landed Irish Gentry" by Burke,
as well as the Irish who lost their lands due to rebellion.
In general the dialectic was that the Anglicans (who ruled England) were
more tolerant of Catholics and less tolerant of Protestant dissentors
left the Anglican Church. The Anglican Church itself is fairly tolerant
of a wide diversity of views. Leaving it was a serious event. The
establishment tended to persecute Presbyterians and tolerate Catholics
Ie Wentworth and the Black Oath. Cromwell and the Puritans tended to
tolerate other Protestants and to be intolerant of Catholicism. Michael
Gandy gives a great talk on these issues: Dissent in England,
in England and Ireland, and his view (which is not the predominant
view but is an interesting one) of the English Civil War.
This was not the kind of racial hatred thing on the part of either the
English or the Irish that modern day Irish nationalists would have you
beleive. It was a rebellion within the British Empire -- British law
was followed in disposing of estates. You had to prove the people were
in rebellion -- and if they were -- Cromwell didn't give a hoot about
their religion or their "nationality". He murdered a lot of English
at Drogheda by mistake -- didn't bother him one bit. So there are very
good records of land transfers for this time. Where I learned all this
is mostly from the two books above and a couple on the English Civil
War. And Burke's "Landed Irish Gentry". It's a shame so many think their
ancestors were Irish peasents so they never check it out. It's full
of Gaelic Irish families and records the parishes in which they had
I wish it said where they went to. Like to find the Betaghs of Cavan.
Proof that the English, after the Civil War was over and Cromwell's son
gone and the Restoration occurs, were not inheritantly against
was that English Catholics and Irish Catholics who were loyal to England
faired quite well. It was the identification of Catholicism in Ireland
with rebellion . The rebels slaughtered all the Protestants they could
find and engaged in acts of barbarism. This inspired the English to
retaliate. Despite the rebellion in 1641, the penal laws against
were not put into place till 1703, after a SECOND rebellion in support
of King James (well, except he was king so it wasn't really a rebellion,
but they were on the losing side, so anyhow....). After the Willemite
settlement, they owned 15%. (From Kee "The Most Distressful Country").
The impact of legislation enacted against Catholics in Ireland (not
or Scotland) after 1703 meant that by the mid 18th century Catholics
owned 7% of the land.
Bad! I never call it "The Glorious Revolution" (King William's ascent).
was only glorious in England. Otherwise, it sucked. However it would
been just as bad if King James had won because it was the 17th century.
The modern notions of "religious freedom" had not yet evolved. The lists
of the folk King James was going to do in if he had won also have
survived....I think in Burke, or maybe even Hanna. Nice for
Good luck finding out more about the Scots. I can try to find it in my
Scots historybook but since it wasn't an event of significance in Scots
history, I'm not it goes into detail.The Scots Presbys were busy
Cromwell and then against him during this period.
|Re: Ulster 1642 by linda Merle <>|