Scotch-Irish-L Archives

From: (cassidy)
Subject: Re: LAMONT
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:20:58 -0400

At 10:28 PM 5/27/97, linda wrote:
><snip lots of Phil's stuff>
>
>Thanks!! I never quite trust these sources like Bells -- I wonder
>where he gets his info too.
>
>Anyone know much more about BLACK's -- especially the cluster of
>them who originate from the Ballymena area? I was once told by
>another Black from NI that "everyone knew" that's where the Black's
>come from. Anyone from that cluster trace them back to Scotland?
>
>I'll be thrilled to learn they are Lamont's -- my father's a Dalrymple.
>I now must apologize not only to Geoff -- and the rest of you,
>but to myself as well for anything my ancestors may have done. Near as
>we can tell they were farmers whom the Lord of Staire would have not
>wanted to recognise as relatives. Er... the feeling's mutual.
>
>Well, back to the Campbell list, where first aid is required. A member
>was bashed at a highland game. Macaulay, History of England, P 63 the
>Penguin edition. GREAT first aid for lowlanders and Campbells.

Would someone explain the relationships between a clan name such as Lamont
and a surname.

thanks
michael

=================================================================
Cassidy, McAree, McGee, Marran, Byrnes, Pattison [Patterson], Cox
Abbott, O'Brien, Rourke, Freemont, Collins

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X-Message: #2
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:50:25 -0700
From: linda <>
To: Victor Paul <>
CC:
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Re: 2nd Ballinahatty Presbyterian Church
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Hi Victor,

I'm sure someone else has a better idea on why they married in the
groom's parish -- perhaps they were marrying according to his rites
and she was something else. I recall a fellow in the church which
I attended as a child (First PResbyterian of ....) whose wife of
30 years or so still attended the Methodist church next door. This
town was deep in the heart of "Little Ulster" in Western PA, so
there were 4 Protestant churches on the street, with manses in between.
Eh...on EVERY street <grin>)

>> 2. I notice there is a townland in Drumragh called Ballynahatty. Is
> this where the Church is likely to be physically located?

Yes

> 3. Why "2nd" - a schism ?
It was the 2nd presbyterian church in the town. You haven't heard the
joke about the 9 guys who survived a shipwreck and made it to an
island. The 3 English fellows immediately built a brewery. The 3
Scotsmen immediately built a distillery. The 3 Irishmen built the
first, second, and third Presbyterian churches.

Linda Merle

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X-Message: #3
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:58:32 -0700
From: linda <>
To:
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Campbell/McRae
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Hi guys,

A few weeks ago seems to me we discussed the relationship between
the surnames CAMPBELL and McRae??? Could someone recap on line or
directly to: Geoff at ??

I beleive this was right before Digest happened. I'm archiving the
digests but it doesn't appear in them.

Thanks,

Lina

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X-Message: #4
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:34:11 -0400 (EDT)
From:
To:
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Help

Members: If anyone Has information about these families,Please contact me.
1. Scallions ( where did this name originate?)
2. Cherry

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X-Message: #5
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:46:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mary Dunn <>
To:
Message-Id: <>
Subject: McCOOL-McGRAW
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Thomas McCool, b. in Ireland 1720, d. in Virginia 1765. Married to Margaret
McGraw who was born 1735. Their son, Adam McCool, b. 1766 in VA, moved to
KY and died 1835. His daughter, Margaret McCool was my gg grandmother. I
would like to share information with anyone who connects to this line.

Regards,
Mary Dunn


MY SURNAMES INCLUDE:
BOOTH - BROOKE - CAFFEY - CHOICE - DUFF - DUKE - HAGERMAN - HARRIS - HARPOLE
- HOLLAND - KILBOURNE - KIRBY - McCOOL - McGRAW - MERRITT - OWEN - POTTER -
RICKETTS - TARRANT

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X-Message: #6
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:09:44 -0400
From: Janice Bertram <>
To:
Message-id: <>
Subject: Turner/Allen
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Hi,
I'm looking for an Abram TURNER. He is mentioned in The Rosa Lee Downey
Notes as having signed the Declaration of Independance, at Charleston,
South Carolina(p. 145). I haven't been able to locate the book, and am
wondering if someone can look in it for additional information on him.
His daughter Martha(Molly) TURNER md. John ALLEN b. abt. 1756 in
Scotland, came to America at about age 14, d.1860 in Yancey Co.,NC.
John and Martha's daughter Martha b. 1-10-1809 md. Amos L. Ray.
I'd appreciate any information about the ancestory of these lines.
Thanks.
Janice Allen Bertram

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X-Message: #7
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:33:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Dan Wilson <>
To: Becky J Absher <>
Cc: Scots-Irish <>
Message-id: <>
Subject: Land ownership in Ireland
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Becky J Absher wrote:

> Hi again!
> I'm wondering if you could tell me about the time the
> British took over Ireland and if, at that time, the Irish were "allowed"
> to own land?

Becky,

This is a good question for the list. I'm no expert and I'm recalling this
from memory, so I won't claim it's "Gospel." I'm sure others on the list
will be able to clarify points where I've strayed from the mainstream
thought on this. Anyway, here goes...

From my reading, I'm of the impression that prior to the English influence
in Ireland, the land was common property owned jointly by the people.
Ireland at that time was governed by the Brehon Law system and organized
into clans. The clan Chieftain was viewed as a father figure but had
absolute authority over his clansmen just as in the Scottish Highlands.
Land was "controlled" by clans, but I don't know if that's the same as
ownership in the modern sense.

The English King Henry II in 1184(?) was apparently invited to Ireland by
Dermot Macmurrough, King of Leinster(?) to aid him in fighting the Vikings
who had invaded southern Ireland and taken control of Dublin, Waterford,
Wexford and other major urban areas. In fact they founded Waterford, as I
recall, and others. Anyway, Henry was busy at the time, fighting the
French on the European continent, so he sent Strongbow, the Earl of
Pembroke. He in turn sent two of his nephews(?) who with about 500 troops
helped drive the Vikings from the south. At that point, Henry showed up,
and the southerm Irish provincial kings paid homage to Henry, including
the Ard Righ (High King) at the time, thereby giving Henry the right to
claim lordship of southern Ireland. The Ulster clans, however, never paid
homage to Henry and refused to recognize him as lord of all Ireland. That
set the stage for later conflicts.

Henry was then in a position to impose his own Feudal System in southern
Ireland and supplant the Brehon Law / clan system. In the Feudal System,
the monarch owns all of the land and grants it back to nobles in return
for their managing the land, paying taxes and raising armies in times of
war. Nobles in turn would lease land to tenants, taking for payment such
things as crops, livestock or service. So, in that sense no one under the
Feudal System "owned" land in the modern sense. The Feudal System was used
in Europe as well. I'm not sure of its origins, but I believe it arose
after the fall of the Roman Empire.

In Ulster, the continued squabble really was over the Fedual vs. the
Brehon Law system. The Ulster Earls were not about to allow the English
monarchs to gain control of their ancient lands. This ended with the
arrival of James I and VI who confiscated the lands in Ulster by extending
the foothold of Henry II to all of Ireland. Actually, successive English
monarchs between Henry II and Elizabeth I gradually imposed their will
over Ireland through the years, but it was James I and VI who finally took
over the long resistant Ulster. He used as his excuse the various battles
fought by the O'Neills with Elizabeth I. In Irish eyes those were battles
for survival, but it was politic for Elizabeth to characterize them as
rebellions, implying that they were English subjects rebelling against
their monarch. Anyway, after Elizabeth's death in 1603(?) and accession of
James I and VI, the Ulster earls finally feared they would be caught and
imprisoned. As a result, one night, they boarded a ship and sailed to
Rome, abandoning their lands in Ulster to James. This is known in Irish
history as the FLIGHT OF THE EARLS.

James was the son of Mary, Queen of Scots, and cousin of Elizabeth I. He
became King James VI of Scots after Mary was beheaded by Elizabeth.
Because Elizabeth died without an heir, he was next in line for the crown
of England and so gained a second crown. The countries remained separate,
however, so he is called James I and VI. Union of the parliaments and use
of the term "British" followed that. I don't recall the date of the Act
of Union, but I think that it was in the 1700s. Someone on the list will
surely have that date handy.

Following the flight of the Earls, James had a free hand and quickly moved
to introduce the feudal system into Ulster. The Ulster PLantation was the
result. He sent, as you know, English and lowland Scots as settlers and
ejected "native Irish" who had been followers of the "rebellious" earls.
Those native Irish were sent to the south of Ireland for the most part.
Many of the native Irish remained however by voluntarily turning their
lands over to James in exchange for an English title. The Plantation Scots
were mostly Presbyterians since that was the national church of Scotland
at the time, and they brought it with them.
Hope this helps....

Dan Wilson

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X-Message: #8
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:36:12 -0400 (EDT)
From:
To:
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Re: Scots Colonists book - lookups

This sure is nice of you. Living in the south some NewEngland books are hard
to come by. Would you please look for COLLINS & LEONARD families. Thanks,
Helen

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X-Message: #9
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:38:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Dan Wilson <>
To: Victor Paul <>
Cc:
Message-id: <>
Subject: Re: 2nd Ballinahatty Presbyterian Church
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Victor Paul wrote:

> I have a marriage certificate that has puzzled me but I have to admit
> not yet having done anything to understand it . Maybe some here can
> point me in the right direction.
>
> Date is 1895 and Moses STEWART of "Creevan" (= townland Creevangar
> Alexander I believe) in parish of Drumragh, Co. Tyrone marries
> Catherine "Cassie" HUNTER of Aughadulla, Parish of Dromore, Co Tyrone.
> They are married in the "2nd Ballinahatty P. C." according to the
> forms and disciplines of the Presbyterian Church. However the parish
> listed at the head of the certificate is Drumragh.

<snip>
>
> 3. Why "2nd" - a schism ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Victor Paul, Christchurch, New Zealand

Paul,

The 2nd may have been a "Secesionist Church." There was indeed a spit in
the Presbyterian church around 1746, and some parishes established a
second church. Sometimes however, a 2nd was established simply to handle
population growth and to reduce travel for memembers.

Dan Wilson
Arizona State Univ.

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X-Message: #10
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:44:02 -0400 (EDT)
From:
To:
Message-ID: <>
Subject: MAVITY

Looking for any information on Mavity's in N. Ireland circa 1740's. Came to
America approx. 1750 to Virginia. I have the information from that point on
but need the earlier. the name could of been spelled a few different ways
such as, Mavitty, Mavette, Mcvitty etc...

Thanks in advance,

Brian Mavity

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X-Message: #11
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:17:50 -0500
From: (Patricia J. Weisshaus)
To:
Message-Id: <>
Subject: GREGG, GRAHAM, BLACK, SPENCER
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I am doing research on these four names in County Donegal. Yes, Blacks were
found at Ballgreen in Donegal. I am trying to get in touch with descendents
of Hugh Graham from Fayette Co., PA and Mattie Gregg Spencer and John
Spencer, her husband, from Piqua, Ohio, all originally came from Donegal.
Please contact me.

The names in Co. Donegal are:

Daniel Gregg and Jane Graham b. 1783 (both) m. 30 May 1805
Richard Gregg, Daniel's father d. 1828
Hugh Graham m. Isabel Kelso, Jane Graham's father & mother
Hugh Graham (their son) Fayette Co. PA m. Margaret Black in Fayette Co.
William Alexander Black and Ann Black m. 15 Oct 1840, Ramelton,
Co. Donegal

Also have Robert Macoubrey and Jane McMillan in Belfast, Co. Down early
1800's. Met and married in New York. Would like to get more information on
these two families in Co. Down. This particular family has no living
relatives except me and my brother. All sons and one daughter died without
issue. My brother and I, one cousin and her daughter are only ones left
related to this family.

Will exchange information.

Genealogy forever--housework hardly ever! Pat Weisshaus

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X-Message: #12
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:02:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: William McMahon <>
To: Gareth G Davis <>
Cc: Dan Wilson <>,
"DixieLand is God's Country!" <>,
"''" <>,
"''" <>
Message-Id: <>
Subject: Re: Civil War Stories_Please ignore if not interested (My Last
Post)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Gareth,

I feel I must supply you with one correction to one of the statement you
made. That was the statement which said something to the effect that
"why then did they fight" (for the CSA)? You infer that everyone who
fought for the south was a racist.

You seem to be unaware that men in the south were DRAFTED and did not have
the benefit of paying someone else to go in their place. Except running
for the hills there was no option left for them except serve. (In "modern"
times you can evade the draft and still be elected President but NOT then.)
If you have access to any history books covering TX in civil war times, you
can read of the fate of small band of German settlers of the Texas hill
country who attempted to flee to Mexico to keep from serving in the confederate
army (they were against slavery). They were captured by vigilanties(?) and
executed WITHOUT TRIAL. So before you make judgements on peoples character,
you must consider the times in which events take place! NAME CALLING AND
SLANDEROUS ACCUSATIONS DO NOT WIN A DEBATE!

I read posts referring to historical events because I have an interest
in history, especially in relation to genealogy of my family and their
times. I had many family members who served the confederancy and I have
no doubt they did so because they wanted to defend their country and believed
in self determination. (Self determination is the IN THING today.) (I'm
certain I had relatives who served the Union as well.) I know our ancestors,
on both sides of events, may have sinned but I leave it to our maker to make
final judgements. Whether any of you believe as I do is immaterial to me,
it's a free country and we can each believe and practice as we wish, as long
as we do not infringe, or impose on, the rights of others.

Let's get back to finding our elusive ancestors,

Bill

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X-Message: #13
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:38:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Aprille C. McKay" <>
To:
Cc:
Message-Id: <>
Subject: REAH --> WRAY
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi,
I have an "orphan" Mary Wray who was born in Pennsylvania about 1837 and
married John WILSON about 1762 in Pennsylvania and died 1830 in Gaston
Co., North Carolina. She was the mother of two university professor
Presbyterian ministers. Is this the family you're working on? Her
husband started from Letterkenny twp., Cumberland Co., Pennsylvania.
Here's some information from the notes I inherited from a
donor-genealogist:

The Scotch-Irish by Charles A. Hanna, pub. 1902, reprinted 1968 by Gen.
Pub.
Co., Vol. I, p. 542 -

County of Donegal (Ireland 1610-1630) - Now Kilmacrenan, 1000 acres, John
Wray
(grantee of John Vaughan): stone bawn and house; some English families.
(Abstract of Nicholas Pynnar's Survey in 1619)

Ibid, p. 532 - a tenant of John Hamilton, County Armagh, Precinct of Fewes
- Adam Rae.

Ibid, p. 536 - a lessor of William Baillie, in 1629 - William Rae, in
County of Cavan: Precinct of Clanchy.

p. 605 - A list of names such as are to remove according to the foregoing
Declaration (Battle of Worcester in 1651 which compelled Charles the
Second to abondon the kingdom and seek safety on the Continent, the
following lists of pupular Scotts out of Ulster): County of Down,
Casltereagh, Kilwarlin, and Lisnegarvy Quarters - Thomas Rea listed among
the names.

Ibid, Vol. II, p. 96 - Presbyterian ministers - In Stiles Manuscripts, at
Yale College may be found some information in regard to the condition of
the so-called dissenting churches in the South during the decade from
1760-1770 - listed is John Rae, of Williamsburg.

Scotch-Irish by Charles A. Hanna, pub. orig. in 1902, repr. in 1968 by
Gen. Pub. Co., Vol. II, p. 527 - Locations of Scottish Families in Ireland
in 1890 (first figure in all of Ireland, second figure in Ulster)

Wray - 15-14, 6 in Donegal and 5 in Londonderry.

Scotch-Irish Pioneers In Ulster and America by Charles Knowles Bolston,
1910, repr. by Gen. Pub. Co., 1981 - p. 369 - Home Towns of Ulster
Families 1691-1718: Rea, James, C (Commissioner) 1692 - Moneymore, Derry

Aprille Cooke McKay

1409 Granger Ave.
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48104

On Wed, 28 May 1997 wrote:

> Would you please try Reah, from County Donegal or County Derry, abt. 1730-
> Archibald Reah, wife and three sons and maybe a daughter
>
> Thanks
>
> Pat
>
>

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X-Message: #14
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:00:58 PST
From: (Janet E Reinhold)
To:
Cc:
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Re: Scots Colonists book - lookups

On Tue, 27 May 1997 21:21:38 -0500 (Lang, Linda)
writes:

>The book is called *The Original Scots Colonists of Early America,
>1612-1783* by David Dobson. It lists 7180 names, varying amounts of
>Linda Lang
>()

Dear Linda,
I am looking for Alexander CRAWFORD b 1733; and Alexander WIGGINS b 1713.
Both of these men were in Brooke Co VA(WV) before heading west to
Carroll Co OH.
Thank you so much!
Janet Reinhold

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X-Message: #15
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:29:20 -0500
From: (Barbara Cowan)
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Harpers
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Is any one tracing the name Harper in the Belfast area around 1760??
Barbara



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X-Message: #16
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Miles Alexander <>
To:
Message-Id: <>
Subject: ALEXANDER Dilema
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Hi All,

I'm looking for information on ANDREW ALEXANDER b. 1818. I'm assuming he's
Scotch-Irish, but I'm not sure if he's an Ulster-Scot.
I have the TOWNSHIP of CLOUGH, but there are four Clough's in Ireland. The
two I've been concentrating on are in Antrim and Down.
He emmigrated to Quebec in the late 1840's. His first wife died at sea and
he walked from Quebec City, with his daughter, 50 miles to his brother
Thomas's homestead at Leed's Village, Megantic Co,Que.

Allways Searching,
Miles Alexander

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X-Message: #17
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:45:11 -0700
From: "Brad Boyes" <>
To: <>
Message-Id: <>
Subject: Walters
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How does one go about finding the immigration information from my
GGGGrandparents arriving in Canada in 1832 from Ireland?
Will the immigration papers or any other source during that time frame give
the name of the parents or the place of birth?
As sponsorship chair for the Canadian Figure Skating Championships in
Vancouver in March and now sponsorship Chair for the World Figure Skating
Championships coming to Vancouver, I have little free time to do my family
search, so I need help going in the right direction with the time I have.
Could be a couple of tickets for the Worlds in it for some real help in
this matter.

Thanks
Brad
Please e-mail info to

This thread:

• Re: LAMONT by (cassidy)