QUEBEC-L Archives

From: John Helmut Merz <>
Subject: [QUEBEC] Re: Free Lunch/copyright etc
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:49:29 -0700

Martha Costello wrote:
>
> Afternoon' fellow listers,
>
> When John said:
>
> > I found this most valuable article in the Missing Links edition Vol.4, No. 38,
> > > ...... will bring it herewith to your attention.
> > > Here is some real food for thought..
> >
> he surely did provide a 'wake up' call to us all! Thanks, John, for
> taking the time to post this article - Food for thought indeed & likely
> one not everyone had seen.....it's my impression many folks
> 'unsubscribe' to the wonderful newsletters RootsWeb automatically makes
> available to all new subscribers of RW mail lists...but is so important
> to us all. This whole issue of Internet / copyright is certainly a big
> topic in many forums these days.......
>
> For example, since Rick Roberts kindly posts to this list (eg digest #
> 240; 9/4/99), making it easy for even nonsubscribers to read his great
> [-that's only my opinion, natch! - I 'found' it in another's post right
> here, I believe & recommended it, again, on this list, I think -] free
> newsletter, perhaps most saw that Fawne Stratford-Devai had an article
> just recently in "Global Gazette" ( Fri Sept 3, 1999,Vol III Number 15)
> about amendments to new Canadian copyright regulations & even made it
> easy for us all to remain 'current' by telling us... ...."The
> regulations are available on the Dept. of Canadian Heritage website
> www.pch.gc.ca/culture/cult_ind/copywh_e.htm (Click on What's New)
> "........
>
> Stuart Nixon, in the article posted by John, made some excellent points
> which theoretically 'should' have been but reminders to us all but may
> well have been 'news' to some...being a 'rooter' on the Internet often
> reminds me a bit of being on a busy freeway where a lot of 'drivers'
> never bothered to take driving lessons..oh, sure, we all know it's easy
> enough to slip over the speed limit once in awhile - did it myself just
> yesterday, in fact, in my post to Angela, when I omitted to quote the
> source of the census info I provided her - but I, for one, believe this
> is yet another area where 'ignorance is bliss' does not
> apply...ignorance of the law is rarely a valid defence, yet we, in this
> 'instant gratification' society it seems we live in, armed w/ this
> wonderful, 'instant' 'tool' we have, do, as Stuart suggested, perhaps
> forget we do not have 'the right' to the fruits of others' labour...In
> the 'extreme' there seem to be at least a few who go so far as to feel
> that if one 'has' the information another 'wants' there is some
> 'obligation' to give it to them.....On another mail list, one web page
> owner shared his 'experience'.....someone from the list had written to
> him, direct, asking for info; he referred them to his webpage, which
> contained the info sought & got rudely -very, he felt - answered that
> the 'seeker' didn't have the time to go look for it....' & a 'rebuke'
> because he was not prepared to write out the info 'again'.....
> Now, this was info he freely 'gave' on his website alright but I, who
> may justly 'benefit' from it (ie use) do not have the 'right' to 'give'
> that info to anyone else...it's not mine to give! I think that's where
> the problem lurks....We just don't stop to think about it....We're
> probably all aware we're breaking the law when we stand at the
> photocopier in the library (unless it's 'fair use', of course) but here
> on the Internet it often looks like some people forget copyright law
> doesn't apply to just 'hard copy'......take something as simple as this
> missive of mine, for instance..it is my understanding of the 'law' that
> if someone did a 'cut 'n paste' of part of it to a letter (post) of
> their own, without using "..." & giving me 'credit' as author, that
> would be an 'infringment' of my copyright......& yes, I'm as guilty as
> the next; have done just that on more than one occassion, I know... (I
> mean the not giving credit by name part vs presenting it as my
> own!!!)....it's all too easy to 'slip up' but perhaps we all have an
> obligation to at least be aware we are doing so, even when it's in
> hindsight, when we've been 'excited', 'in a hurry','eager to
> share'.....personally I find these are all 'occassions for sin', for
> which I must be ever vigilant ....and still frequently 'sin'.... Our
> listowners tag 'think before you post' is sage advice indeed!
>
> The fact that the Internet, and therefore our 'mail lists, 'know no
> boundaries' further complicates matters, perhaps...different countries
> had/have different laws....For example ..are all Americans 'cousins'
> aware, for instance, that in Canada, so far as I'm aware, it never has
> been, as I understand was the case in the U.S.A., for a period, a
> requirement to 'declare' copyright, ie give notice, so signified by that
> little 'c in the circle thingy' we see on the flyleaf of books? that's
> right folks....copyright in Canada, so far as I know, has always, 'for
> ever & ever', been automatic - copyright exists as soon as the ink is
> dry! for both published & unpublished work! & extends fifty years after
> the death of the author! but only for published work...unpublished is
> 'never' extinguished, so far as I understand. These 'when does it enter
> public domain ?' questions may generally seem much simpler this side of
> the border! All we Canadians need do is wait for the author to die, then
> wait another fifty years.......Most countries have now signed the Berne
> Convention, which I understand is basically an agreement to respect each
> others' copyright laws...I think the U.S. signed as recently as 1989,
> tho' it's been 'around' a long time. Prior to that there were other
> bilateral agreements between our two particular countries tho', ( &
> likely between others..haven't 'looked into' those) going back at least
> to 1929.....so photocopying, or 'republishing', a Canadian book in the
> U.S. might just not be as 'legal' as sometimes might seem to be
> thought....[ I'm not at all sure about this, mind you...that's why the
> 'mights' in sentence above....I'm not at all well versed in U.S.
> copyright law, previous agreements etc...but it could be something
> American 'cousins' might want to look into, if it's a personal concern
> at all; so far as I understand, it would, however, be 'illegal' for me,
> a Canadian, to 'acquire' such a book tho'... ] Plus, again, so far as I
> know/understand, it is illegal, in Canada, to p/copy / 'republish', a
> U.S. book that may be perfectly legal to p/copy in the U.S. (ie those
> published w/out notice during some periods & copyright now expired -or
> as the term goes are now 'in public domain') because our own copyright
> law applies! ie no notice required here, ever, & Canada's law respects
> others' law to the extent of our own....no easy thing to get a handle
> on, perhaps....& perhaps I have it all wrong.....please....don't take
> my word for any of it!
> .
> The flip consideration in all this, of course, is each of us protecting
> our own, individual, copyright...almost every mail list I've ever
> subscribed to has, at some point, had someone very 'irate' -justly so,
> I believe - when they've seen a gedcom they'd 'shared', suddenly appear on
> someone else's webpage as that site owners own work, complete w/ the
> original author's errors they had subsequently corrected !- this w/out
> permission or any credit to the generous person who 'shared', with one
> person, their years of hard work....the web page may not even belong to
> the person the info was first shared with! I had a chuckle when I read
> somewhere - think it may have been in Rootsweb newsletter even - of how
> that all 'backfired' for someone.....the standard 'someone 'shared'
> their work w/ a 'cousin' who subsequently 'published' the work as their
> own', but with a twist, of sorts....the 'new' author interpreted the
> originator's reference to an ancestor being a Le Blanc to mean it was a
> person of the white race...had some embarassment, I do believe....
> I was fortunate, perhaps, to see one of these 'warnings' on a mail list
> very shortly after I first got into this 'net rootin' ' via mail lists
> - just about a year now, I think, since our own Pennie asked would I
> like her to 'post' my website on the 'list' & I wrote back asking
> 'what's a 'post' '&' what kind of 'list' did she have in
> mind'.....<grin> (see ? I keep telling you 'newbies' we all were,
> once...I still feel a lot like the 'older' generation is portrayed in
> the Bell Canada' TV commercials re the internet...like them, I don't
> have that many candles on my cake, perhaps, but am 'very old', so far
> as anything 'techie' goes) Anyway...I decided right then that even if I
> ever learned how to make a gedcom I'd never see one of mine, anywhere
> on the net...oh, sure, I happily 'share' w/ cousins -how else would we
> all make the fast progress we do, cultivating our trees- ( tho' I'm
> often tempted to make one of those "in my day it wasn't that easy..."
> comments we 'old folks' are sometimes fond of making to our children)
> but my sharing is 'always & only' in hard copy, by snail mail....if
> someone wants to plagiarize ( & I have no control over them doing so,
> forsure -) my 'sweat 'n tears', they're gonna have to at least retype
> it! <grin> If & how others 'choose' to share their 'work' is, it goes
> without saying, up to them!
> Now, say one writes something others are likely to see, a term paper in
> university, for example, or perhaps an 'article' to share with their
> genealogy group, & feels it isn't something worth the effort of
> 'registering' perhaps, but it just might contain some 'original
> thoughts' someone else might 'like' & decide to 'use' in some
> 'published' work of theirs ... later on the original author would like
> to use those 'original thoughts' a second time, in something they again
> want to 'publish'....where do they stand? how could one 'prove' one
> 'said it first' ? Simply producing, to 'the authorities' justly
> demanding the proof, the copy of ones original work one mailed to
> oneself, by registered mail, and never opened, ought to do the trick,
> I'd think....
>
> Now, ALL that being said, I'd suggest none of us 'panic', & suddenly
> stop 'sharing' what we think we've 'learned' along the way & feel might
> be of some 'use' to others...let's just 'be aware' [ I personally
> believe we each assumed the 'responsibility' to become so when we first
> exercised our 'right' to use the internet] & continue to use some of
> that 'common sense' Mr Nixon mentioned in his article....What we
> 'choose' to 'collect' in our own library is our own business...
> maybe.... but what we 'choose' to 'publish' on the Internet becomes
> everyones 'business', perhaps.....
>
> Even those, perhaps few, who may faithfully 'choose' to read these
> ramblings of mine must by now certainly be wondering don't I have
> 'enough to do'.....yep... I do....& since only two of my fingers know
> how to type, my mail box may even have filled up..there might even be a
> mail list digest or two, while I've been 'pickin' this out......so I'll
> just add what many might wish I'd simply done in the first place - some
> URLs- & leave it at that....
> Most of these are ones I've 'gleaned' from others' kind posts; a few I
> 'fished' out myself.....please keep in mind as you peruse....some are
> Canadian, some are American...If you're only gonna read one I'd
> recommend the IIGS Newsletter (Bonnar)....got time for two? Check out
> the genealogists code of conduct one...we may not 'be' professionals,
> but there's nothing to stop us from behaving like one!
> All the URLs below were 'pasted' from the applicable page, today, so if
> one doesn't work for you, sorry, I can't help. The govt sites I take as
> 'gospel', the others as guidance...
>
> Canadian sites:
>
> The Canadian Intellectual Property Office Home page at:
> http://cipo.gc.ca/
>
> Copyright Law in Canada at:
> http://www.idealaw.com/copylaw.htm
>
> American sites:
>
> United States Copyright Office at:
> http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/
>
> WHEN WORKS PASS INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN (* Remember! Applies in U.S. ;
> not in Canada)
> http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm
>
> >From : "International Internet Genealogical Society" NEWSLETTER
> April,1999 at:
> http://www.iigs.org/newsletter/9904news/index.htm.en
> See especially:
> Understanding Copyright and Its Applications to the Information Age by
> Penny Bonnar (IIGS Newsletter -April 1999)
> http://www.iigs.org/newsletter/9904news/copyright.htm.en
> and
> Restoring Ethics to Genealogy by Barbara A. Brown (IIGS Newsletter
> -April 1999)
> http://www.iigs.org/newsletter/9904news/ethics.htm.en
> There are other articles...scroll down on either of the above
>
> Board for Certification of Genealogists is at:
> http://www.genealogy.org/~bcg/welcome.html
> and from their page:
> Standards of Conduct at:
> http://www.genealogy.org/~bcg/code.html
>
> Comments or questions welcome, as always....direct...
> Good Rootin' everyone.
> Martha

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• [QUEBEC] Re: Free Lunch/copyright etc by John Helmut Merz <>