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Archiver > QUAKER-ROOTS > 2004-02 > 1077829804


From: "Paul Redden" <>
Subject: Re: [Q-R] ALLEN family of the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:10:04 -0500
References: <000901c3fbd6$62963490$b673de0c@xppro> <002501c3fc23$4cb9b640$0100a8c0@e7whzsqix>


Jerry and all,

I just got back from the Shenandoah Co. Library and I have to point out
additional information that shows Eunice Rogers Walton was indeed the second
wife of Joseph Allen the elder and not Joseph II.

on 12 July 1802, deeds were recorded where Joseph and Eunice Allen deeded
property to Joseph's son Thomas Allen for $100, some to his son Jackson
Allen for $100 and some to his son Benjamin Allen for $100.

These three brothers were the son's of Joseph I and Ruth White and the
brother of Joseph II..

Unfortunately I still don't have anything connecting my line to Shenandoah
but the Davis & Dick book claims that Rueben Allen probably had additional
children who were still minors at the time of his death and thus not in his
will.

Paul Redden

Genealogical Reprints at www.yesterbooks.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Richmond" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-R] ALLEN family of the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia


> Ron & List -
>
> Which Joseph Allen was it ??
>
> I had this same discussion privately with another Allen researcher
> four years ago. It would be a breach of etiquette to publicly divulge
> her identity. I do not however see any harm in quoting her statement
> of the Genealogical Issue that triggered the correspondence. And
> of course one is always free to quote himself <G>.
>
> STATEMENT OF ISSUE
> QUOTE
> There is a very interesting anomaly in your information that I hope you
can
> help me resolve. Previously (from information I had collected somewhere
> else on-line) I had noted Eunice Rogers Walton as the second wife of
Joseph
> Allen the ELDER (son of Reuben), i.e., the Joseph Allen 1730-1805 married
> first to Ruth White, not Joseph White the YOUNGER 1754-1809. (son of the
> above Joseph). The dates for the younger Joseph would put him much closer
> in age to Eunice but the support you post
>
> Crooked Run MM on 9 Apr 1788 Joseph Allen of Shanandoah co,VA, marries at
> Crooked Run MH, Unice Walton of Frederick co,VA; on 3 May 1788 reported
> married
>
> is compatible with either man. Also, the younger Joseph died and was
> buried in Ohio, whereas Eunice seems to have died in Virginia according to
> these other sources. Finally, Eunice's daughter Hannah married
> Joseph-the-younger's older brother--how strange it would be if she married
> the younger brother of her son-in-law!
> UNQUOTE
>
> MY RESPONSE
> QUOTE
> It has been sometime since I thought my way thru this particular
> situation. I don't recall my reasoning in its entirety but I will attempt
> to reconstruct it as best as I can. First of all, you are absolutely
> correct, a decent case can be made for either interpretation based
> merely on the record of the Marriage at Crooked Run MM.
>
> There is no solid evidence for the death date of 1805 for Joseph I.
> He might have died much earlier, perhaps say 1793. The 1805 date
> is a date from the Ancestral File and is probably no more than an
> estimate. The record in Hinshaw for Joseph II at Caesars Creek MM,OH
> is questionable. It shows DOB as 4-27-1854 and DOD as 3-2-18x9.
> One must presume that the 1854 is a typo for 1754. The year of
> death could be 1809, 1819, 1829, 1839, etc. The Ancestral File
> submission chooses to interpret this DOD as 1849 making Joseph II
> 95 yrs old. I think this interpretation is completely unfounded.
> Caesars Creek MM was established in 1810; I would guess that this
> membership record for Joseph II is one of their oldest, thus explaining
> the difficulty in interpretation by the extracter. If he died later &
lived to
> be 95, given Quaker practices, his age at death would have been noted.
> I believe that it is this DOD interpretation that forced the AF file
submitter
> to conclude that Eunice Rogers had married 2ndly to Joseph I, in that as
> widow of a Joseph Allen, she marries 3rdly to Goldsmith Chandlee in
> 1811, suggesting that her 2nd husband was dead by 1810.
>
> My interpretation is that Joseph II died in 1809 and likely had come to
> Ohio at an early date without ever moving his membership from Hopewell MM.
> The entry at Caesars Creek for 5-28-1814 shows that Joseph, Ruth, &
Deborah,
> children of Joseph rocf Hopewell MM dated 11-4-1813. This suggests to
> me that these are children of Joseph II, that he is deceased, & that the
Joseph
> of this record is Joseph III. It would be illogical to interpret this
entry as
> referring
> to Joseph II as a "child" of Joseph I as Joseph II would have been 60 as
of
> the date of this event were he still living. From this line of reasoning,
it is
> not
> difficult to conclude that Joseph II came to Ohio alone in 1808-1809
timeframe,
> to establish a settlement prior to sending for his family. In the process
he
> dies
> in Ohio and his children come out a few years later at the time their
uncles &
> aunts are coming to Ohio. On this basis Joseph II's death in Ohio then
has no
> bearing on figuring out which Joseph married Eunice Rogers.
>
> Given all of the above, the most telling argument is that Eunice is much,
much
> closer in age to Joseph II.
>
> My conclusion is that Joseph Jr, Deborah, & Ruth that came to CC in 1814
> are the children of Joseph and Eunice Rogers, and are aged approximately
> 25, 23, & 21 respectively which is still reasonably consistent with being
> called children assuming that they were all still unmarried. They could
of
> course have been younger. Based on normal Quaker practices with
certificates
> of transfer, one must assume that the 3 are siblings. If one accepts this
line
> of thought, then it is inescapable that Eunice married Joseph II. Joseph
I would
> not have had a Joseph III born about 1789 by a 2nd wife whereas Joseph II
would
> have.
>
> I would not put too much weight on the Hannah Walton marriage. I have
seen
> things similarly awry from today's perspective that probably did not turn
a head
> way back then. I hope my thoughts are of some assistance.
> UNQUOTE
>
> Some other add-on thoughts. As previously noted, one may not always
infer
> from people being called "children of" or "son of" or "dau of", that the
> individual
> was a minor. It can also be done merely for identification puposes. In
many
> instances, if the individual described is truly a minor the cert will say
"minor
> child
> of" and there is absolutely no question of what was intended. If Joseph
III was
> a son of Joseph II by Susannah Bond, one COULD estimate his DOB as 1785
> which would make him 29 in 1814, and this further weakens the "children"
as
> minors argument.
>
> Note that the 1849 DOD in Ohio for Joseph II CANNOT be substantiated from
> the information published in Hinshaw's EAQG. Nor is there any other
source
> that I am aware of for the 1754 DOB other than the interpretation of the
1854
> date given in Hinshaw at Caesars Creek.
>
> One might be tempted based on entries at Caesars Creek to believe
> that it was Joseph Jr (Joseph III) who married Elizabeth Cadwallader on
> 29 Apr 1815, Greene co,OH. That however is not the case. Gene.recs.
for
> this family later at Fairfield MM, Hendricks co,IN, prove that this Joseph
was
> the son of Jackson Allen (brother of Joseph II). Joseph III was the
individual
> disowned for disunity in 1822.
>
> Another telling aspect is that there is NO CERT for Joseph II at Caesars
Creek
> unlike that for Jackson Allen & family who came in 1811 and were endorsed
> there from Miami MM. This lends credence to the thought that Joseph II
came
> to Ohio before Caesars Creek was set off in 1810 and died early on, before
his
> children's cert arrived in 1814.
>
> Regards, Jerry Richmond
> You are cordially invited to visit "The Quaker Collection"
> http://home.sprynet.com/~jrichmon/qkrcoll.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rtct" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Fw: [Q-R] ALLEN family of the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
>
>
>
>
> (765) 453-0643
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rtct" <>
> To: "Jerry Richmond" <>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Q-R] ALLEN family of the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
>
>
> > Jerry and All,
> >
> > Rudelle (Mills) Davis and Peggy (Davidson) Dick published "ALLENS:
> > QUAKERS OF SHENANDOAH, THEIR ANCESTORS AND DESCENDANTS," El Paso Book
> Bindary [sic], El Paso, TX, 1984. I purchased a copy from Rudelle in
1987.
> > I have checked much of their research and find it very reliable. Most
of
> > the following is taken from their work.
> > JOSEPH ALLEN (c1730, PA; 1805, Shenandoah Co., VA) was the fourth
> child of REUBEN ALLEN (1690/1700, Dartmouth, MA; 1741, Shenandoah Co., VA)
> and MARY JACKSON (c1694/1703, NJ; bef 29 May 1751, Augusta Co., VA), who
> were married bef 1719, Monmouth Co., NJ.
> > JOSEPH ALLEN married 1761, Shenandoah Co., VA, to RUTH WHITE (28 Feb
> 1732, Shenandoah Co., VA; 15 Oct 1781, Shenandoah Co., VA), probably the
> eldest child of seven, born to WILLIAM WHITE (c1712, MD; 1766, Shenandoah
> Co., VA) and ROSE (surname unknown) (c1712, MD; 1756/1765, Frederick Co.,
> VA). There is no evidence that RUTH WHITE was ever a Quaker, and the
> marriage date to JOSEPH ALLEN can be deduced from actions his Meeting took
> against him following his marriage in 1761. All of the children were
> recorded as Quakers.
> > JOSEPH ALLEN and RUTH WHITE had ten children, the second being
JOSEPH
> ALLEN, Jr. (27 Apr 1754, Shenandoah Co., VA; 2 Mar 1849, Caesars Creek MM,
> Clinton Co., OH). Note that his death occurred NOT in 1809, but in 1849,
at
> the age of 94 years, 10 months, 5 days (Caesars Creek Birth and Death
> Records), and was buried in the Caesars Creek Burial Ground.
> <snip,snip>
>
>
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