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Archiver > PACE > 2009-07 > 1246648499


From: Rebecca Christensen <>
Subject: Re: [PACE] Question for Rebecca
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:14:59 -0700 (PDT)


Okay, this is probably not a good idea for me to reply without having read all of the e-mails on this subject that have been sent to the list since June 20.   But I don't think we have an "in between" group between Groups 3a and 3b.  I don't believe there is any documentation to suggest such a thing. 

In the original e-mail I wrote on June 20 when the Stephen Pace DNA results became available, I addressed several of the points that James later brought up in his e-mail to me.  In that June 20 e-mail, I was discussing the new results and in the process discussed as background the DNA changes at DYS 449.   Then James' question was about the DNA differences. So, in the meantime, it might be helpful to go back and re-read my original e-mail of June 20.
   In that e-mail, I discussed several aspects of the DNA that appear to be in play with these few kits that are in Group 3b but have apparently had a back mutation to the original Group 3a result (and original modal haplogroup R1b result) at DYS 449.  These DNA changes at DYS 449 are not unusual - DYS 449 is a marker that you have to be careful with in interpreting the results.
   The results at DYS 449 do not necessarily mean we have an in-between group, although there exists that possibility if the paper documentation suggested there was an existing in-between group.  But in that case, everyone else in Group 3b would have to be descendants of the line of Stephen Pace and the Edmond/Sarah Walker - that is, under them in the tree for it to be an in-between group.  So, an in-between group doesn't make sense as far as I understand the lineages.

I am planning on writing an e-mail that addresses James' questions directly, but don't have time to do so today.  Hopefully, this will make some sense and isn't too disjointed.

As an aside, when referring to specific DNA markers, the DNA markers should be referred to by their names.  The only place I have ever seen them referred to by a number count from the left of a chart is here on the Pace list.   Different DNA companies list the markers in different orders - and FTDNA has a very unique ordering - rather than by ordering the markers using their names in sequence which is done by other labs.   So, the markers of greatest interest in the Pace Group 3 are markers DYS 385b and DYS 449.

Rebecca

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, Roy Johnson <> wrote:

From: Roy Johnson <>
Subject: Re: [PACE] Question for Rebecca
To: ,
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 11:47 AM

I would add a point, and that is that in my opinion, we don't have enough
samples of the in-between group to declare a modal. This group isn't making
much sense at present, and until it does, I believe the modal question
should remain open.

Roy

-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:] On Behalf
Of
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:16 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [PACE] Question for Rebecca


I should re-emphasize that my question is wholly theoretical.  I'm not
thinking about lineages, or what actually happened, but about the relative
changeability of the markers and what effect such considerations might have
on distinguishing between groups.


James Blair


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