KINCAID-L ArchivesArchiver > KINCAID > 2006-08 > 1156457041
From: "Sue Liedtke" <>
Subject: From Ramsey to Black
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:04:01 -0700
References: <000e01c6c60d$ff640fa0$65020a0a@BARBSDELL> <001401c6c6cb$1fdac6d0$3c036c0c@Susan> <000801c6c6d6$841334b0$65020a0a@BARBSDELL>
These last few weeks I have spent what time I have had chasing Ramsey
Elizabeth Kincaid Fulkerson was named for her grandmother Elizabeth Kincaid
just as her mother Mary Ramsey Miller was named for her grandmother. The 1st
part of this is proven. Elizabeth used the K. middle initial which her son
wrote stands for Kincaid. He names her grandmother Elizabeth Kincaid
(daughter of Andrew Kincaid d 1810 Greenbrier Co) in his journal which was
written during his mother and her father's lifetime. The 2nd part is not
proven. Mary never has a middle name or even initial in any contemporary
record. What gives substance to the rumor is 1) Andrew's wife's name was
Mary 2) The same rumor has come down in another of Andrew & Mary's daughters
lines (again without proof). 3) A rumor that the wife of Danial Harrah may
have been a Margaret Ramsey (again no proof). This last was significant to
me because of a Chalkley snippet: 1772 court case Woods vs Dan O'Hara. Woods
is suing O'Hara for debt involving a 1762 bond signed by Danial O'Hara and
Andrew Kincaid of Albemarle Co.
Knowing that I would not find a smoking gun such as an obliging Ramsey
father thoughtfully leaving an inheritance to his daughter Mary, wife of
Andrew Kincaid (any such proof would have been found long ago), I set out to
find out what Ramsey families were available and whether anything would show
up by looking at allied families. This led me to Blacks, particularly to
Rebecca Black. (Andrew & Mary Kincaid on Nov. 1777 sold land on the Little
Calf Pasture River to Rebecca Black. The deed was delivered to Jones
Henderson Feb 1794).
First a rundown on Ramseys.
There were 2 John Ramseys living in Augusta Co. in 1754. One on the Great
Calf Pasture was married to Margaret, the widow of Robert Crockett. John &
Margaret were in Mecklenburg NC by 1774 when they sell Great Calf Pasture
land patented to Margaret Ramsey and Andrew Crockett (Andrew is also in NC
and is co-seller). John wrote his will Aug 4, 1775 naming children: James,
William, John, Esther and Rachel. The will was probated 1776 NC. His
children all immigrated to the Carolinas with him. How he is related to the
other John is unknown
The other John Ramsey lived in Beverly Manor on S. River. He is most
associated with land at the extreme eastern edge of Beverly Manor though he
held several parcels at various times including one next to James Gillespy a
little further to the west. His will was written Feb. 15th, 1783 naming
wife Mary children: Andrew (inherited land between John Patick & John
Black), George (land in KY), John, Alex, Wm, dau. m Andrew Steel and Danial
plus several grandsons. Andrew Ramsey & Andrew Steel are execs. Teste: John
Patrick, John Black and Samuel Black. The estate appraisal was returned Nov
18, 1783 by John Black, Wm Gillespy, Wm Finley and Thos. Turk. On Sept. 1,
1783 Danial wrote his will. It was proved June 1784 with Teste by: John
Black, Martha Black and Samuel Black. Danial names his brothers and sons of
his decd. brother James. Execs are brothers Andrew & John Ramsey and Andrew
Steele. Mary Ramsey wrote her will Dec 30, 1785. It was probated in
Albemarle Co. Oct 17, 1786. She names her sons and her granddaughter by her
deceased son James. Execs are son John Ramsey and Andrew Steele. Teste:
Samuel Black, Alex Cummin, James Perthulls.
Also in Augusta Co. early was at least one Robert Ramsey perhaps two. One
could be the son of the other. One Robert died by Nov 12, 1759 when Robert
Hall is made exec of his estate. Bonds are given by John Bigham and SAMUEL
TINCHER. His widow Isabella married Robert Hall. His appraisement is
returned March, 1760 by Andrew Hamilton, James Carlile and Joseph Campbell
(these are Great Calf Pasture names) and a further appraisement is entered
July, 1760 listing payouts to Robert Hall, James Given, James Hall, DANIEL
HARA, liquor at the venue, balance due the orphans. One Robert (either this
one or another) held land at the extreme SE tip of Beverly Manor. The land
was bought from Beverly in 1747 and sold by Robert & Margaret Ramsey of Amon
Co. NC in 1762. It is conceivable that Robert/Margaret is the son of
Robert/Isabella or visa-versa. One of the wives was the daughter of Thomas
Beard whose 1769 will names the children of Robert Ramsey as grandchildren.
His legacies were paid to children of Robert Ramsey, Esther Alexander,
Thomas Michell & mother, Thomas Dunlap & mother. In 1753 a Sarah Ramsey,
widow sold land in Beverly Manor (originally Robert Steele's) to John Fulton
c Robert Ramsey. Fultons and Steeles held land at the SE tip of Beverly
Manor. Who Sarah's husband was is unknown.
A World connect file reports that there was a Robert Ramsey b 1725 d 1792
Lane Co. SC married Margaret Beard. His father is given as Robert Ramsey b
c1702 Ireland or Scotland d 1760 Cumberland Co. PA (?) m Isabella Beard. His
father was William Ramsey b after 1766 in Scotland or Ireland. This record
also says that John b 1726 d 1783 was married to Mary Steele and was also
the son of Robert and Isabella. The file goes on to give more information on
the children of John/Mary. James d 1761 with children: John, Alex, George
and Mary (John, Alex and Mary are confirmed by wills), John b 1747 d 1790KY,
Alexander b 1749 d 1821 Clark Co. KY m Mary Black c 1777 and Andrew b 1751
(a 1801 court case confirms Andrew b 1751-54). There may be some problems
with this file.
Other Ramsey's of interest are a William Ramsey and a Margaret Ramsey adm of
James Ramsey . William may be son of the John Ramsey d 1783. In 1754 Wm
bought 582a on the Little Calfpasture c Alex Dunlap. In 1767 Wm & Jane
Ramsey sell that land to Moses Moore. Margaret may not be the widow of
James, son of John but of another James as the 1760 date seems a bit too
soon. Bond was given for Margaret as administrator by Abraham Smith and John
Davis. This James' eldest son William and wife Agnes sold land on the N
Shanendoah in 1767.
Now to the Blacks. They may all be a part of one family.
The Patriarch appears to be John Black whose will was written Feb 15, 1758
names wife Isabella, children: Samuel, John, David and dau. m to Wm Brown.
Execs. son Samuel & Wm Brown, David qualifies. Test Adam Thompson, Moses
Thompson, Andrew Cowan. The appraisal was entered Nov. 1758. John didn't
sign his will but heir-at-law Samuel Black requests the will be entered.
David's will was made Nov 1769 wife Elizabeth, children: John, Andrew,
James, Elizabeth, David (in 1770 Alex McClanahan is appt guardian). Execs:
Samuel Black, Michael Bowyer & John Bigham. Test: Jones Henderson, John
Black, Wm Cowen.
Samuel died prior March 18, 1777 when widow Rebecca and Jones Henderson were
made administrators of the estate. Rebecca made her will Feb. 8, 1794 naming
children: Samuel, Mary, John, Margaret Roberts (m John Roberts 1792) and
Joseph. Execs son Samuel and Jones Henderson. The will was proved 1802.
Samuel's son John, as heir to Samuel, in 1783 sold 100a, the part where
David lived, to John Black (could be David's son).
This John Black's land was located in Beverly Manor on Lewis Creek just
south of Staunton. He bought parcel #15 from John & Margaret Lynn in 1752.
Teste John Blackley? and John Ramsey. In 1772 Samuel Black, heir-at-law of
John Black, and Rebecca Black sold 100a of on a branch of Lewis Creek to
John Black c David Black's land. Others in the imediate neighborhood were
John Bigham, John Henderson and later Jones Henderson. This land is within 2
1/2 miles of the land that Robert/Anna Helena Kincaid sold to Andrew/Mary
John's son John may be the John Black who bought 375a in 1746 from James
Davis. The land had originally been sold to George Hume. witness: Wm Wright.
This land is in the extreme eastern portion of Beverly Manor. In 1756 John
sold 210a to son John and 165a to son James. James & Sarah sold to John
Ramsey in 1763. In 1749 John Black bought 738a c Wm Long, Bev Manor line.
Test James Alexander, Wm Long, James Bell. In 1760 he he sold 369a to son
Samuel, on which John and Samuel now live and 369a to son William. William &
Rachel Black sell this land to Alex Thompson in 1776. This John may be the
one married to Martha Patrick. Robert Patrick's 1761 will mentions Martha
Black and her 8 sons. John & Matha Black gave testemony for Danial Ramsey's
will. This John also had a nephew John who remembered in 1801 working on
Uncle John's land when he was 16. The land in question is the 738a. An
interesting grouping is the 1769 appraisement of James Gillespy's estate by
John Ramsey, John Black and John Davis Jr. James Gillespy's estate was very
near the 375a parcel.
Samuel Black (probably son of this John) will 1782 age 55 wife Jane,
children: John (land on New River where he lives), Wm, Sam (minor), James
(minor), Margaret (m Sam Price 1798), Mary (m Wm Black), Martha, Nancy
(Gillespy m after 1801), Jean (m Mathew Alexander). Jane's 1814 will gives
married names of her daughters. Exec. for Samuel Black was brother William
who in 1801 reported payouts to John Black, Mathew Alexander & wife Jane,
Samuel Price & wife Margaret, Wm Black & wife Mary, Wm Black Jr, Martha
Black, Samuel Black, Nancy Black, and James Black.
There was also a Robert Black who owned land (surveyed 1741) north of John
Ramsey and John Black's 375a parcel. In 1748 he sold this land to John
Miller c Wm Skillern. This Robert was in the area in 1746 as Elizabeth
Skileren was named adm of husband Wm Skileren with sureties Robert Black and
John Miller. (note the Miller family has not been unraveled so I have no
idea if this John Miller was related to James Miller who married Elizabeth
Kincaid, daughter of Andrew d 1810)
The collection of surnames is very interesting and more work needs to be