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From: "" <>
Subject: Re: [ILMAGA] Re: Rev. R. Clark in 1868, ? church
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 05:41:52 GMT


And how about Frs. Marquette and Joliet, now that I think about it, in WI and both shores of Lake Superior even earlier than that, in the early 1700s if I remember correctly. From their names, they were French or French-Canadian. I think they started from the St. Lawrence River and came that direction. There wasn't a town in Milwaukee, where Marquette Univ. is, until 125 years later, so he didn't start it (or it didn't stick). It's very German (I lived there 25 years ago) with a pretty high percentage of Catholics but I think they were not among the original settlers. Could be very wrong about that too, as when I lived there I was looking for my Norwegian Lutheran ancestors, and there were a lot of them, and German Lutherans and Reformed around. Don't know a thing about Joliet, IL except that there's a big prison there now.

I don't know how much traveling the Puritant ministers had to do to reach their flocks but it had to have been some. Remember that before 1640 they had founded Harvard in order to have enough educated clergy. And the colony kept growing and spreading out. But I just don't know about circuit riding. The Dutch Reform clergy in New Netherlands, New Jersey, and Delaware had circuit riders before 1700. They had churches, but not enough clergy, so the clergy had to travel. I've just learned this in my wonderings on a wonderful list called Dutch Colonies, which has incredible experts. Many are licensed genealogists and have written published books, but are still willing to help regulare folks. I had posed the question as to why some children were baptized the day of birth, and others as much as three months later. Were the ones baptized the day of birth those who might not survive? Were those baptized later those whose mothers didn't recover easily? No, the answer came ba!
ck. It normally depended on when the circuit-riding preacher came around. When he was available, you grabbed him to do what needed to be done. That may be one reason for the 1/3 rate of pregnant brides, too!

I think the southern colonies pretty much went without the service of clergy except when a patron sent clergy for a rich colonist. He might have traveled some. John Wesley and his Methodists mushroomed in the very early 1800s. The Disciples of Christ began in about 1815 but didn't get up a head of steam until probably 1825. My Methodist circuit rider had jumped ship to the Disciples and was still doing it, apparently, at a slower pace, in the 1870s, after official retirement.
And the Methodists and other denominations still do it in a different fashion. Where churches are small and far apart, a minister may do an early service in one and drive like crazy and do a late service in another place. Sometimes these are called "yoked" churches and are even different denominations. Methodists, because of their history, are prone to "three point charges," where the preacher goes to three churches on a Sunday, or alternates.

But I don't think any other denomination besides the Catholics combined the exploration with the mission aspect of their work.

Doris

-- Mary Ann Kaylor <> wrote:
Just one added thought on the circuit rider priests.....the early explorers
who were priests, came to southern Illinois converted Indians and others,
gave the sacraments to many whom they met on their explorations to the
North and up the Mississippi and Illinois Rivers, so I have read. That was
the beginning of the circuit riders, so to speak, in my opinion. (in the
late 1700s)

In our area the first Catholic church service was held in one of the homes
by one of these priests.



At 11:39 PM 5/29/2005, you wrote:

>I didn't know there were circuit riding priests. I have circuit riding
>Methodists, Disciples of Christ, and Dutch Reformed ministers in my
>background. Never occurred to me that there would be circuit riding
>priests, but of course if there were Catholic farmers before 1850, they
>were almost by definition spread out and would have to be served by a
>circuit riding priest. My Methodist ancestor at times preached a circuit
>of four churches in central IL, with midweek services at people's homes
>inbetween (then there was the year he had a circuit of 400 miles in the
>Dubuque area!). And if the Irish came west, they would be farmers like
>almost everybody else. Not all Irish immigrants are the "stereotype" who
>went to Boston or New York City. And I'd bet those records are there,
>should you need them, either in Jacksonville or the Diocese office. You
>have no idea how many Protestants drool over the lack of records like that
>before IRAD picks up the official state records! Thank yo!
> u for not taking offense, and for furthering my education too. We all
> need to know not just the sweeping generalization, but the smaller
> details of the areas we're working with.
>
>Doris
>
>-- Mary Ann Kaylor <> wrote:
>Our local Catholic church has records beginning in 1870 and
>forward. Before that time there were "circuit rider priests", and they
>came here, but sad thing is there are no records before 1870 that I am
>aware of. Supposedly the Diocese keeps those records and they might very
>well be there, I haven't investigated. In our area the Catholic immigrants
>were farmers and they tended to congregate in the same areas, this can be
>seen by looking at the early plat maps. And some of these were in the
>Public Domain Land Tract Sales from the Government, so earlier than 1850s.
>I know lots settled in urban areas, but we had our farmers, too, in the
>case of our family, who were Irish. One might try the Diocese in
>Springfield for records that are not in the church in Jacksonville. I tend
>to believe that there are records in J'ville, but I can't document that as
>I have not had reason to search there. I just know the ones in my area do
>have records in the church office.
>
>You didn't offend me, I just wanted to make the point that there were
>Catholics around in IL, including the explorers in the 1700s. I visited a
>church at Kaskaskia where the first church was located (its still there but
>not located on the same spot, as the earthquake of 1809 changed the course
>of the Mississippi River and flooded the original site). This is the only
>spot in IL that is West of the Mississippi due to that earthquake.
>
>This has been interesting, maybe we will all learn something <G>
>
>At 06:52 PM 5/29/2005, you wrote:
> >No problem on my end...Have observed interesting things while doing my
> >genealogy of the Meany and Lonergan families - seems a bunch came over
> >then a bunch more of the same family. Haven't been able to find any
> >chaurch records..altho I know a Catholic Church was in Jacksonville, cause
> >a family legend..
> >Drucilla Meany-Herbert
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Yes, I overspoke, and I apologize. There were Catholic churches. There
> >>were Catholic explorers. By the time Chicago started growing, which was
> >>later than we tend to think, there were Catholics there. And of course
> >>the Catholics and the Episcopalians both kept complete records of
> >>baptisms so that if you can find those records you can get early birth
> >>records long before the state kept them. But proportionally to other
> >>faiths, there weren't as many of them on the frontier, which is what
> >>Illinois was even in the 1850s. This is an overgeneralization, but
> >>Catholics then tended to be urban, and IL wasn't urban yet. One church
> >>in one town typically was started by one family which attracted others
> >>and doesn't prove a trend. I'm not anti-Catholic; I've just read books
> >>on the history of religion in the migration of Americans. There were
> >>spotty settlements of Catholics in IL and as time passed, there were more
> >>and more of them until today they probably follow ethnic trends. Wh!
> >e!
> >>re there are large groupings of Poles, Italians, etc, the percentage of
> >>Catholics will be higher. Otherwise, the percentage will be like that of
> >>the general population. But that wasn't so in the first half of the 19th
> >>c. Have I make things worse or better? I really didn't mean to offend.
> >>
> >>Doris
> >>
> >>-- Drucilla Meany-Herbert <> wrote:
> >>Hmmm..wonder about that too. My odd great grandfather and grandmother
> >>came over around 1852, their son Michael was a stonemason and did some
> >>sculpture for the Jacksonville Catholic Church there...so there was a
> >>Church. What the name of it was or is, have no idea.
> >>Drucilla Meany-Herbert
> >>
> >>Mary Ann Kaylor wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Few Catholics in IL at that time? 1860? I find that hard to believe as
> >>>Missionary priests were the first to "visit" in southern IL when
> >>>Kaskaskia was founded, the first capitol of Illinois..... I am talking
> >>>1700s here. And I know for a fact that Catholics settled in Central
> >>>Illinois in the mid 1850s. And priests were "circuit riders" just like
> >>>the Methodists, etc., traveling long distances to give the sacraments to
> >>>those Catholics. Just to clarify that one point.
> >>>
> >>>At 02:49 PM 5/29/2005, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>If that doesn't pan out, there are two other resources, one for the
> >>>>Methodists and one for the Christian (Disciples of Christ) Church.
> >>>>The Methodists kept excellent records of where their ministers were
> >>>>when. Go to www.umc.org, click on archives, click on Illinois. You
> >>>>will find several "Annual Conferences." This is a geographical
> >>>>designition in this context. I'd try Great Rivers first, for the
> >>>>southern half of the state. You'll find, unless it's changed since I
> >>>>used it last, an email address. Click on that. Give them what you
> >>>>know and ask how long Clark was there. (If they don't have an email
> >>>>address you'll have to call or write a letter.) If they don't know of
> >>>>him, try the Illinois Conference, for the northern half, and repeat the
> >>>>process. If neither know of him, he's probably not a Methodist. You
> >>>>may have to pay a small fee for the info.
> >>>>
> >>>>For the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), there is a book,
> >>>>"History of the Disciples of Christ in Illinois: 1819-1914" by
> >>>>Nathaniel S. Haynes, 1915. It is arranged by county so it's easy to
> >>>>see if he's there. I got it via InterLibrary Loan. I believe I've
> >>>>found it online at various times but not others. The book itself does
> >>>>not have an index but once I found it online with an index, which was
> >>>>nice as my ancestor showed up in several counties. The next time it
> >>>>had been reformatted without an index. You might try googling the
> author.
> >>>>
> >>>>If he was a Baptist, forget it. They don't keep records except
> >>>>sometimes in specific local churches. Their national archives states
> >>>>that their archival records are useless for genealogical purposes, as
> >>>>they never asked churches or ministers to send records to the
> national body.
> >>>>
> >>>>There were few Catholics in IL at that time. And I suspect Clark would
> >>>>be listed as Father or Fr. if he were a priest.
> >>>>
> >>>>Hope this helps,
> >>>>Doris Waggoner
> >>>>Seattle
> >>>>
> >>>>-- wrote:
> >>>>This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list.
> >>>>
> >>>>Classification: Query
> >>>>
> >>>>Message Board URL:
> >>>>
> >>>>http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/jUC.2ACE/98.2.1
> >>>>
> >>>>Message Board Post:
> >>>>
> >>>>Michele,
> >>>>Thank you for the response to my query. After I saw your reply, I
> >>>>checked the 1870 census for Morgan county, Illinois and found an entry
> >>>>for a Robert Clark and his family in Franklin, Illinois, and his
> >>>>occupation is listed as "Minister Gospel". I then checked for current
> >>>>listings of churches in Franklin and I found four:
> >>>>Christian, Methodist, Baptist and Sacred Heart Parish Hall (I presume
> >>>>Catholic). I am guessing that Robert Clark was probably a preacher
> >>>>with the Methodist Church. I will do some research with the local
> >>>>genealogical society or contact the church directly to see if I am
> >>>>correct. I will let you know what I find out.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
> >>>>Lots of Menard County Cemetery Inscriptions on the MAGA site, as well
> >>>>as many photos of tombstones. Check it out at:
> >>>>http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilmaga/menard/cemetery/1_cem_list.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
> >>>>For Cass County: The 1892 Biographical Review Index for Cass, Brown,
> >>>>and Schuyler Counties, Illinois
> >>>>All on the MAGA site: http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilmaga/index_men-cass.html
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
> >>>For Cass County: The 1892 Biographical Review Index for Cass, Brown,
> >>>and Schuyler Counties, Illinois
> >>>All on the MAGA site: http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilmaga/index_men-cass.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
> >>1903 Atlas Biographies for Scott County....
> >>
> >>
> >>==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
> >>1903 Atlas Biographies for Scott County....
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
> >Check out all the resources we have online for Morgan County.
> >Births, deaths, Wills/probates, church, census, cemetery, etc.
>
>
>==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
>1879 and 1911 Macoupin County History Bio Index now online, as well as
>other Macoupin Sources: http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilmaga/index_mac-sang.html
>
>
>
>==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
>Greene County is well covered on the MAGA site. Find the 1855 State
>Census as well as the 1860 and 1880 Federal Census. Many biographies from
>the 1879 Greene History are online with indexes of Bios from the 1879 and
>1905 Histories.


==== ILMAGA Mailing List ====
Check out all the resources we have online for Morgan County.
Births, deaths, Wills/probates, church, census, cemetery, etc.



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