HTC-BOSTON-L ArchivesArchiver > HTC-BOSTON > 2003-10 > 1067538502
Subject: Re: [HTC-BOSTON] Roll Call Francis J May
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:28:22 EST
In a message dated 10/29/2003 9:58:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Yes I've heard of the mythology ...
> meanwhile ... as a FACT ... the five counties of Muter (sept chaim -
> gaelic for 'of the five also pronounced Keefe) .. in addition to their
> celto-roman heritage before the Viing age ..were from abo 950 AD to 1066
> AD conquered and occupied by Danish Vikig chieftains who made Munster a
> kingdom ... keeve or keefe for the 'five' is a Danish &Dutch word ..
> This is completely untenable! The O'KEEFFEs and their ancestors were in Co.
Cork from time immemorial. They were native Irish. In Irish their name was
spelled OCaoimh, hardly Dutch-sounding! Their ancestor was not one of the
traditional sons of Milesius (Milidh) who were : Heber, Heremon and Amergin (no
Art that I'm aware of). He was named Art Caemh, son of a King of Munster
killed in 902.
The O'KEEFFE dynasty were Kings of Munster before the MacCARTHYs. They
were pushed out of their territory around Newmarket, Cork, by the Norman
invaders in the 13th Century, and wentn to west Cork. All during the time frame you
give, Munster was ruled by Kings of the Eoghanacht line - for 500 years beyond
1066 which was the Norman invasion of England, contested for a while by the
Dalcassian dynasty (O'BRIENs of Thomond). They descend from Brian Boru, who
expelled the Danes from Ireland in the Battle of Clontarf (1014). You may have
heard of the DNA study which established that the Vikings of Dublin
apparently never strayed much beyond the confines of the City itself.
Can you name these Danish Kings who ruled Munster? What is your source?
What were the MacCarthy Kings and the O'Briens of Thomond doing while these
Vikings were ruling their territories? Who were the MacCarthy and O'Brien Kings
who submitted to them?
As for England and York, that's another matter, but it doesn't make me
happier. I'm concerned that history be reported correctly.
I suspect that DNA studies may establish some elements of truth in the old
mythologies, such as the broad migration routes of some of the waves of
immigrants to Ireland. The Basque element is showing up in DNA studies, which may
suggest a stay in what is now Spain/Portugal, and is in accord with the Milesian
story. But these stories are so mixed up historically and chronologically,
that they simply cannot be taken literally. If an authoritative source for
the early Irish dynasties is need, try "Irish Kings & High Kings", by Prof.
Francis John Byrne, 1973; 1987; 2000.