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From: William Pickelhaupt <>
Subject: Re: [GV] GER-VOLGA Digest, Vol 4, Issue 88
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:14:02 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33303.1235856654.2246.ger-volga@rootsweb.com>


Kevin,
 
Thanks for the compliment, but I did not "stumble" upon my finds. I knew from a visit to Budapest several years ago that the LDS had gotten access and copied documents in what was the Eastern Bloc that no individual or organization seemed to be able to examine, much less copy for use in the West.. I did grind away for a couple of weeks on the LDS website before I found that the census data and conscript lists existed. Many "researchers" do not even know how to look up anything on the LDS website. It can be a powerful resource and should not be dismissed.
 
My techniques are the same research methodolgy I had used to research and write my three books on San Francisco and maritime history. Most of the research broke new ground. I go outside the box and sometimes it results in a very good find. It has with the census data LDS had and I hope it does with the conscript lists.
 
Maybe I will take up the challenge to run for the AHSGR Board.

Bill Pickelhaupt
VC of Kind
 

--- On Sat, 2/28/09, <> wrote:

From: <>
Subject: GER-VOLGA Digest, Vol 4, Issue 88
To:
Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 1:30 PM


Today's Topics:

1. Re: My 2 cents / GR Russian links) (Vera Beljakova)
2. Re: My 2 cents / GR Russian links) (Kevin Rupp)
3. A false dicotomy, archive vs DNA (frank jacobs)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:03:19 +0200
From: "Vera Beljakova" <>
Subject: Re: [GV] My 2 cents / GR Russian links)
To: "" <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="utf-8"

Thanks Colleen,

But how amazing that AHSGR wants to get rid of everything Russian, as you
report the staff members telling you.
Does that mean also their Russian language library & microfilms of GR
history ?
In recent years, a 4-volume encyclopaedia of "The Germans of Russia"
was published in Russia, in Russian, ca 800 pages per each volume.
The "Memorial" Archives (about the victims of repression) has been
collecting info for the past 20 years, is based in St.Petersburg, and is in
Russian, with amazing data?on each repressend, executed, deported, exiled or
imprisoned victim.
GRs excelled in all walks of life, including Russian literature, music and
art.?

After all, the GRs came from Russia, not Germany....

Vera Beljakova-Miller

----- Original Message ------
?From:Colleen
?Sent:Saturday, February 28, 2009 22:52
?To: ;
?Subject:[GV] My 2 cents






Alas, the society in Lincoln is doing more to discourage the younger
generation to continue the research of Ger-Russ families. One is
"forced" to buy a membership. ie: To purchase a Pleve Chart is $100.00
for non-members; $50 for members. A xeros copy of one page is 50 cents for
non-members and 25 cents for members. And on it goes.
I have to drive 100 miles to use the archives. Using a Pleve chart to verify
just one family, (parents & children) I was told that I couldn't copy
the information with my pencil on my paper. So, I memorized the information then
recorded it later.
A couple of years ago my brother, who lives in Missouri, stopped to see things
as I had just showed him my research. He was told they had nothing on the Walker
family from Frank. He was dumb- founded.
I also had been buying teapots made in Russia as wedding presents for my
nieces. Last year I drove the 100 miles to get one and was told that they were
getting rid of everything Russian. Well, I told her that my grandmother had a
teapot made in Russia as well as wooden soup spoons. She called them her wedding
spoons. Also, her wedding dress was made from material purchased from a Russian
tinker.
My grandparents considered themselves German-Russians.
I have discussed these problems with others in my town about the high cost of
using the archives in Lincoln and they are refusing to travel that far for that
kind of service.
My brother was also interested in purchasing a metal plaque for our
grandparents. The cost didn't really concern him as it is a money making
project for the archives. But he was told he had to be a member. So, they left
and will never go back. How sad.
On my last visit I did tell the person who runs the place (sorry I don't
remember her title) that they were going to price themselves right out of
business.
So, I share what I have with others and many have been generous to me. Now
retired, my funds are limited.
Even with all of the difficulties, I love doing my family history. cmb
Hastings, NE

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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:24:07 -0600
From: Kevin Rupp <>
Subject: Re: [GV] My 2 cents / GR Russian links)
To: "Vera Beljakova" <>
Cc: "" <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=US-ASCII;delsp=yes;format=flowed

I have been on the board now for two years and I have not hear of
such a thing. I would think that before people start repeating
things that perhaps they need to get some facts straight. No one is
"forced" to buy a membership, you have the option. Becoming a
members does give you many benefits that those who are not members do
not receive, as with any organization. Please also remember that
running an facility like this costs money, and with our current
United States president, I will image that finances will become even
more tight.

I do so hope that we are not going down this road of bitching and
complaining once again. If you are upset there are e-mail's listed
on this page

http://www.ahsgr.org/society_board_of_directors.htm

to send constructive letters to the board members. Even better,
become and board member help us all make a difference.

Ideas and concerns are always welcome, but those who have nothing
else to do but bitch please take a chill pill and think how you are
sounding. If our membership were to blossom with many many more
members perhaps we would have plenty of money to lower costs and get
more information.

My hat goes off to those people who stumbled on the LDS findings. A
fantastic find!

Also, please remember to sign your VC contracts and get them to
headquarters.

Kevin Rupp
AHSGR Board Member
VC - Obermunjou, Rohleder, Graf, Luzern, Wittman, Zug



On Feb 28, 2009, at 3:03 PM, Vera Beljakova wrote:

> Thanks Colleen,
>
> But how amazing that AHSGR wants to get rid of everything Russian,
> as you report the staff members telling you.
> Does that mean also their Russian language library & microfilms of
> GR history ?
> In recent years, a 4-volume encyclopaedia of "The Germans of
> Russia" was published in Russia, in Russian, ca 800 pages per each
> volume.
> The "Memorial" Archives (about the victims of repression) has
been
> collecting info for the past 20 years, is based in St.Petersburg,
> and is in Russian, with amazing data on each repressend, executed,
> deported, exiled or imprisoned victim.
> GRs excelled in all walks of life, including Russian literature,
> music and art.
>
> After all, the GRs came from Russia, not Germany....
>
> Vera Beljakova-Miller
>
> ----- Original Message ------
> From:Colleen
> Sent:Saturday, February 28, 2009 22:52
> To: ;
> Subject:[GV] My 2 cents
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alas, the society in Lincoln is doing more to discourage the
> younger generation to continue the research of Ger-Russ families.
> One is "forced" to buy a membership. ie: To purchase a Pleve
Chart
> is $100.00 for non-members; $50 for members. A xeros copy of one
> page is 50 cents for non-members and 25 cents for members. And on
> it goes.
> I have to drive 100 miles to use the archives. Using a Pleve chart
> to verify just one family, (parents & children) I was told that I
> couldn't copy the information with my pencil on my paper. So, I
> memorized the information then recorded it later.
> A couple of years ago my brother, who lives in Missouri, stopped to
> see things as I had just showed him my research. He was told they
> had nothing on the Walker family from Frank. He was dumb- founded.
> I also had been buying teapots made in Russia as wedding presents
> for my nieces. Last year I drove the 100 miles to get one and was
> told that they were getting rid of everything Russian. Well, I told
> her that my grandmother had a teapot made in Russia as well as
> wooden soup spoons. She called them her wedding spoons. Also, her
> wedding dress was made from material purchased from a Russian tinker.
> My grandparents considered themselves German-Russians.
> I have discussed these problems with others in my town about the
> high cost of using the archives in Lincoln and they are refusing to
> travel that far for that kind of service.
> My brother was also interested in purchasing a metal plaque for our
> grandparents. The cost didn't really concern him as it is a money
> making project for the archives. But he was told he had to be a
> member. So, they left and will never go back. How sad.
> On my last visit I did tell the person who runs the place (sorry I
> don't remember her title) that they were going to price themselves
> right out of business.
> So, I share what I have with others and many have been generous to
> me. Now retired, my funds are limited.
> Even with all of the difficulties, I love doing my family history.
> cmb Hastings, NE
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GER-VOLGA-
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GER-VOLGA-
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message

Kevin Rupp

www.volgagerman.net
www.germansfromrussia.net





------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:30:35 -0600
From: "frank jacobs" <>
Subject: [GV] A false dicotomy, archive vs DNA
To: "List" <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"

Greetings,

As a person deeply involved with personal DNA studies, several Surname DNA
research projects and early stages of a more comprehensive localized DNA
project, I would caution members to
not get caught up in "either or" thinking. First you need both the
DNA and the historical record to collaborate with each other to complete the
whole picture. Sorenson whose foundation does global human DNA mapping free,
ill not dissipate scarce resources to research a subject until the applicant can
provide a historical record back to 1850. Of course you can pay for DNA
analysis with no historical anchor, but do you know what you have?

Considerations for a novice might include two routes.

As to the technical aspects, you have 2 choices. You can go with an expensive
detailed DNA research which is CONTINUALLY updated, or you can go with a free
DNA research which posts your pedigree in a global display in a general
framework. I would recommend both, but start with the free display and decide
where you go from there. Then you might go to the commercial research.

The better commercial researchers cost about $280 for each surname sought for
the basic 3 first levels tested, the 12 marker, the 25 marker and the 37 marker.
I'm sure you may get partial test cheaper, but the old axiom of getting
what you pay for may apply.

Generally the male DNA is tracked, as it is much more detailed in tracking a
pedigree back in time. Generally females test their fathers, brothers, sons or
paternal uncles or paternal cousins.
Only one male is required per linage, but can be fleshed out with the female
contributation.
While female DNA can also be pursued, it will cost additionally. Sorenson
will provide both for free, but even there you want at a minimum the male Y DNA
done if available for in-depth
analysis.
The free feedback is not as forthcoming but can be interpreted readily on
posted reports.

For the commercial analysis I recommend FamilyTreeDNA.

Let's move on to the topic of a GR DNA project. As a single project, this
would be monumental. A more pragmatic approach might be smaller projects
developed around how
people aggregated together, which might be by location, religion as a
segregator, surname, etc. The Volga alone would result in 145 villages at
least. Religion is an additional overlay.

Surname is a possibility, but as in occupational names like Schmidt, you would
need another filtering layer of genetic match. The Reeb study group came up
with 3 distinct genetic
haplogroups, unrelated to each other in Alsace, sharing only the name of the
occupational activity of being vineyard workers.

Surname DNA projects are useful, but the history may astound you for DNA
research usually extends far beyond the Russian Archives, as frustrating as they
may be. My personal DNA research touches Polish, Swedish, French, German,
American German pre evolution Queen Anne's migration, post 1865 exodus
migration to Kansas, all a wealth of DNA research without bogging down in the
politics of the Russian Archives. This is all information that the Russian
archives does NOT contain. Yet it may fit in like a puzzle piece.
I am in no way diminishing the importance of the Russian research, but need to
place it in perspective of the larger picture.

An example of how projects might work in Kansas would be to focus on the
earliest migration records in Kansas, segregated by religious association (which
became geographical).
Three groupings originally come forward, the Catholic, Lutheran and the
Mennonite. Informational data bases have evolved around these associations.
An actual DNA project
has been started in the Mennonite group. I am currently involved in exploring
identifying the Catholic patriarchs from the earliest migrations to Kansas from
the Kansas Historical Society
and will be involved with tracking down a male descendant from each patriarch
as a first step, at no cost to the donor. Females and additional males can be
added as we move along.
Of course each party is free to concurrently join commercial DNA research
projects, and develop in depth knowledge of their ancestry.

Thank you for your time.

Frank Jacobs, Pfeifer, Kamenka, Herzog, Ober Monjou

This is just one strategy as we move forward.

------------------------------

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End of GER-VOLGA Digest, Vol 4, Issue 88
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