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Archiver > GER-VOLGA > 2009-02 > 1235840361


From: William Pickelhaupt <>
Subject: Re: [GV] GER-VOLGA Digest, Vol 4, Issue 85
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:59:21 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.33204.1235833576.2246.ger-volga@rootsweb.com>


Hugh,
 
I totally agree with you!
 
I tried for months to get a go-between to contact the Engels Archives - she didn't even respond to me. Vera recently pointed out this go-between may not have the access she once did since someone at Engels has retired.
 
Engels replied to my request in English in Russian. They were really not promising, actually curt, I thought.
 
So I went back to the conscription lists I briefly peeked at when I discovered the census data for 1850 and 1857. There appear to be 32 films at LDS that have what would probably cover the period when GRs were drafted. Sorry they seem to only be for Samara Province, but it is a start.
 
One point here is that LDS has gathered a lot of info that relates to GRs and it doesn't seem to me it has been surveyed over all. A very big undertaking. Some people on this list have volunteered funding, which would be a help.
 
I want to go to Salt Lake City in a couple of weeks to begin the inventory process of the consciptions lists. The goal is to print out any tables that lists villages on specific films - I hope there are some, as the census books did include tables of contents. Then we can have a more focused approach.
 
Again, its only a start. Maybe I am deluding myself, but it seems the only one that can answer my questions without a 10 year wait and separation of a bundle of cash is me. With some help from my friends.
 
Bill Pickelhaupt
VC for Kind
 


--- On Sat, 2/28/09, <> wrote:

From: <>
Subject: GER-VOLGA Digest, Vol 4, Issue 85
To:
Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 7:06 AM


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Russian Army Conscription Lists: Thoughts (Vera Beljakova)
2. Those @#$%! Archives! (hugh lichtenwald)
3. Re: Those @#$%! Archives! (Alejandro M?ller)
4. DNA test vs. Archive research (John Read)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 13:35:59 +0200
From: "Vera Beljakova" <>
Subject: Re: [GV] Russian Army Conscription Lists: Thoughts
To: "" <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="utf-8"






?Re Ted's letter:

The German colonists were given either 2 or 4 years' notice period that
laws applicable to Russian army conscriptions will extend to include GRs, i..e.
from 1876.

Saratov Archives can supply this information, but wish to remain a 'paid
service',
otherwise they are afraid that they might not have any income for storing
GR-related
archvies, but? a movement is afoot to moved all GR-realted archvies under one
roof, namely Engels.?

Good luck !
Vera






Some thoughts about what can be available:

1. The lists mention in the first post are for the Province of Samara, and they
are found on over 65 microfilms, dating from the early 1800's. If I recall,
Volga Germans did not start being conscripted until the 1870's, one of the
reasons the emmigration from Russia began.

2. While the Saratov archives no doubt houses similar lists for Saratov
province, for whatever reason Saratov is not allowing the widespread filming or
even access that archives in Samara and Volgograd are.

3. The necessity is there to find out what is available in individual village
files, as that is how I obtained the conscript lists for Josefstal, through
Volgograd. Access to individual village files is probably only available in
Volgograd or Samara, as Saratov and Engels will not allow the complete filming
of documents.

4. For those who have asked, I do not know what is available for your village.
I think people should ask the archive directly, in this case Saratov, and who
knows, maybe some day they will relent and share their material openly, rather
than piecemeal.

5. Remember, the conscript lists include: Family number of conscript...this
number links conscript to what family they belong to in the 1857 revision, Name
of conscript, date of birth, Father's name, if alive, age of father, ages of
additional males in family, literacy of conscript, if married, and if not at
"home" year of emmigration or location of conscript. Some have all
this data, some only have one or two items.

Best wishes,
Edward (Ted) Gerk

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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:16:47 -0800 (PST)
From: hugh lichtenwald <>
Subject: [GV] Those @#$%! Archives!
To:
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hallo List:
?
The very mention of Russian Archives sets me aflame. Yes, there are tons of
data in the Saratov Archives but I can't afford to buy what I need....those
Russian @^@&&&!#s charge fees which will make your head spin.
There's only one thing that those exorbitant fees preserve...and it
isn't any old GR data.
?
The first problem is making contact with someone at the archives and making
yourself and your requests understood. Not many of us speak/write Russian and
not many of "them" write/speak English. So, most all of "us"
need a middle-man to run interference with the Archives. This
"middle-person" usually will charge a hefty fee...understandably so,
as they provide a valuable service in dealing with the Russians. Fees will
typically run into the hundreds of dollars.
?
Next problem is identifying the data you're after. If you don't
know?precisely what you're looking for you will incur hefty
"search" fees. The Archives charge $15 to open a book and look through
it. An example would be looking for all birth/death/marriage records for a
surname, say from 1901 to 1920 for a particular village...lets use my surname
and one of my ancestral villages....Lichtenwald in the village of Wiesenmueller.
Let's assume?there are 3 "church books" per year and that there is
at least 1 entry for surname Lichtenwald each year.
?
Okay: that's 3 books at $15, times 20, or $900. Then the Archives will
charge $11 per page to copy the material. That's 20 copies at $11 or 220.
Now we are in hock for?$1,120. But there are other charges involved: there was
an?8% bank fee when I was buying stuff...it may have gone up, dunno....but?8%
brings the total up to $1,210. So now the Archives have gathered the stuff,
which is in Russian and is ready to send it out.
?
Remember the "middle-person?" That individual would receive the data
from the Archives and charge you an additional $500. (that's based on a
sliding scale and is accurate for the amount of the order). Now you're in
hock for $1,710. and the stuff is still in someone else's hands and still in
the Russian language.
?
Okay: most of us are not Russian linguists and few of us do Russian
translations for free. You can get the stuff translated (based on my experience)
for $35 an hour...??? So figure 20 copies for one surname would take at least an
hour. Cheap, huh? But if you're ordering whole pages of data and not just
one surname the translation fees can get pretty steep.
?
Now you're paying $1,745. for 20 entries of the Lichtenwald surname...I
don't know about you, but I don't think the Lichtenwald surname merits
that kind of money. Might be different if the surname was Raskolnikow or maybe
Ulanov, but they're not GR farmers.
?
So you see that any individual researching his/her family is pretty much unable
to afford the Archives. (Volgograd being an exception, but they don't have
near as much as Saratov).
?
The only way I could afford to buy data from Saratov on the village I VC for is
if some larger organization (AHSGR...hah!...with money...hah!) did the buying.
That's not going to happen as there aren't enough people interested in
the families from Wiesenmueller. I doubt there are enough people interested in
any individual colony?who would help establish such research funding. ?
?
All of the so-called Historical Societies have missed the boat. Their stated
aims?are to collect and preserve data on GR heritage but in reality they are all
only "social clubs."?Were any of the Societies into serious collection
and preservation of data they would long ago have?gathered all the data from
Russian Archives. Didn't happen, and will not happen in the future.
?
I know I'm a "Johnny-come-lately" and I'm offering up a bunch
of "sour grapes" but I tend to get irritated at the short-sightedness
of so-called historical societies. While cookbooks, newspaper translations, SOAR
obits and family histories/stories are nice, they are not research into nor
preservation of GR heritage. They are only part of the American Experience. With
the exception of Census data and a few minor buys from the Archives (all by
individuals and not by the societies) nothing is being done to "collect and
preserve" GR data.
?
In closing, please continue to pat yourselves on the back and have your
conventions. Play at being "Historians,"... I know I do.
?
Hugh Lichtenwald, from the farm in Monetta, SC
VC, Wiesenmueller

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:56:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Alejandro M?ller <>
Subject: Re: [GV] Those @#$%! Archives!
To: , GER VOLGA <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hugh:

hehe, sometimes funny, ironic, but also true...well said.
I would do the same counting you did, but...on M?ller surname (thouuuuusands)
and in two or three villages, and besides for a 24 year old student with a poor
salary and in a country where 1 dollar costs about 3.50 of our money.
That would be like a million dollars to trace my roots back! hehehe...

But I'm fortunate, many many many people on this list had helped me and
gave me some data for a single "thanks", and that's a fact at
least I have to celebrate. (you know who you are) and there's many people I
still owe some also on this list...

Best Regards for all.

Alejandro M?ller from Entre Rios, Argentina.
http://muellerausweizenfeld.blogspot.com


--- El s?b 28-feb-09, hugh lichtenwald <> escribi?:

> De: hugh lichtenwald <>
> Asunto: [GV] Those @#$%! Archives!
> Para:
> Fecha: s?bado, 28 de febrero de 2009, 2:16 pm
> Hallo List:
> ?
> The very mention of Russian Archives sets me aflame. Yes,
> there are tons of data in the Saratov Archives but I
> can't afford to buy what I need....those Russian
> @^@&&&!#s charge fees which will make your head
> spin. There's only one thing that those exorbitant fees
> preserve...and it isn't any old GR data.
> ?
> The first problem is making contact with someone at the
> archives and making yourself and your requests understood.
> Not many of us speak/write Russian and not many of
> "them" write/speak English. So, most all of
> "us" need a middle-man to run interference with
> the Archives. This "middle-person" usually will
> charge a hefty fee...understandably so, as they provide a
> valuable service in dealing with the Russians. Fees will
> typically run into the hundreds of dollars.
> ?
> Next problem is identifying the data you're after. If
> you don't know?precisely what you're looking for
> you will incur hefty "search" fees. The Archives
> charge $15 to open a book and look through it. An example
> would be looking for all birth/death/marriage records for a
> surname, say from 1901 to 1920 for a particular
> village...lets use my surname and one of my ancestral
> villages....Lichtenwald in the village of Wiesenmueller.
> Let's assume?there are 3 "church books" per
> year and that there is at least 1 entry for surname
> Lichtenwald each year.
> ?
> Okay: that's 3 books at $15, times 20, or $900. Then
> the Archives will charge $11 per page to copy the material.
> That's 20 copies at $11 or 220. Now we are in hock
> for?$1,120. But there are other charges involved: there was
> an?8% bank fee when I was buying stuff...it may have gone
> up, dunno....but?8% brings the total up to $1,210. So now
> the Archives have gathered the stuff, which is in Russian
> and is ready to send it out.
> ?
> Remember the "middle-person?" That individual
> would receive the data from the Archives and charge you an
> additional $500. (that's based on a sliding scale and is
> accurate for the amount of the order). Now you're in
> hock for $1,710. and the stuff is still in someone
> else's hands and still in the Russian language.
> ?
> Okay: most of us are not Russian linguists and few of us do
> Russian translations for free. You can get the stuff
> translated (based on my experience) for $35 an hour...??? So
> figure 20 copies for one surname would take at least an
> hour. Cheap, huh? But if you're ordering whole pages of
> data and not just one surname the translation fees can get
> pretty steep.
> ?
> Now you're paying $1,745. for 20 entries of the
> Lichtenwald surname...I don't know about you, but I
> don't think the Lichtenwald surname merits that kind of
> money. Might be different if the surname was Raskolnikow or
> maybe Ulanov, but they're not GR farmers.
> ?
> So you see that any individual researching his/her family
> is pretty much unable to afford the Archives. (Volgograd
> being an exception, but they don't have near as much as
> Saratov).
> ?
> The only way I could afford to buy data from Saratov on the
> village I VC for is if some larger organization
> (AHSGR...hah!...with money...hah!) did the buying.
> That's not going to happen as there aren't enough
> people interested in the families from Wiesenmueller. I
> doubt there are enough people interested in any individual
> colony?who would help establish such research funding. ?
> ?
> All of the so-called Historical Societies have missed the
> boat. Their stated aims?are to collect and preserve data on
> GR heritage but in reality they are all only "social
> clubs."?Were any of the Societies into serious
> collection and preservation of data they would long ago
> have?gathered all the data from Russian Archives.
> Didn't happen, and will not happen in the future.
> ?
> I know I'm a "Johnny-come-lately" and I'm
> offering up a bunch of "sour grapes" but I tend to
> get irritated at the short-sightedness of so-called
> historical societies. While cookbooks, newspaper
> translations, SOAR obits and family histories/stories are
> nice, they are not research into nor preservation of GR
> heritage. They are only part of the American Experience.
> With the exception of Census data and a few minor buys from
> the Archives (all by individuals and not by the societies)
> nothing is being done to "collect and preserve" GR
> data.
> ?
> In closing, please continue to pat yourselves on the back
> and have your conventions. Play at being
> "Historians,"... I know I do.
> ?
> Hugh Lichtenwald, from the farm in Monetta, SC
> VC, Wiesenmueller
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word
> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
> the body of the message


Yahoo! Cocina
Recetas pr?cticas y comida saludable
http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:05:43 -0700
From: "John Read" <>
Subject: [GV] DNA test vs. Archive research
To: <>
Message-ID: <002901c999b6$08a357f0$19ea07d0$@>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"

I hear you Hugh. May I suggest to all a $99 Y-DNA test and perhaps a mtDNA
test from Family Tree DNA. I would be willing to start a German from Russia
DNA Project there.



Thanks,

John Read -



http://volgagermanbrit.us/









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