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Archiver > GER-VOLGA > 2005-01 > 1105421603


From: Ted Gerk <>
Subject: RE: [GV] Type of records archived / details
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:33:23 -0800
In-Reply-To: <200501080908.j0898fjd024449@mail.rootsweb.com>


The problem with this is of all the talks we have heard on records, very few
mention the family lists...which leads me to believe that although some
survived, most did not.

Or...they just have not been found.

At any rate, we just do not have access to these family lists. But we do
have access to Church books and census records.

Ted Gerk

-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: January 8, 2005 3:09 AM
To:
Subject: [GV] Type of records archived / details



(Hi Patrice,
If you can put this through to the Volga-List:

I think the problem is that different people use different terminologies for
the same item.

Russia followed Europe quite closely.

all records are devided into CHURCH AND CIVIL.

Peter the Great demanded that all/ALL CHURCHES, including Jews and Muslims,
start keeping 'proper' church (religious institution) records. Before that
clerics kept records as they saw fit, in any old style that suited them.
(Peter wanted to keep track of the population and started to streamline
procedures)

Peter also introduced the revisions/census (civil records for tax reasons
and state
service.)

Later, it was deemed that there must be interim civic records, which I call
"Admin Lists", which each parish/precinct had, these were to keep records in
between census times (to keep track of the population) and were kept by the
village secretary. they can also be called in our Gr-sense as "Village
Lists" - same thing.

These interim population records are colloquially known as "Family" Lists,
because there is one double-page spread in a bound book per family unit
living in one household which is numbered.

These were filled in, but here it depended on the efficiency of the village
clerk/secretary = some are very efficient and write in masses of details
(the new bride's/wife's maiden surname, from which village she came), some
will just note the first name (no surname, no villge of origin).

Looking at the Family Lists of my own family, I see that my grandfather must
have examined them (prior to 1903), because in his own handwriting (which I
know well), I see all sorts of additons made in pencil by him, mainly adding
maiden surnames of the new brides being brought to the village, with the
village of origin.

These cover the usual, birth, marriage, death & "extra comments"

Then, under "comments" column, again, depending on the efficiency of the
scribe,e will see which person has been sent on call-ip/military
duty/national service, if he is in the Reserves, if he has moved to another
village, if he has asked asked to leave the village commune, (that is the
precurser to emigrating to USA), if he went on to university education,
etc...

In the "Family Lists" of 1885, one can see a 'additional notes' in various
different handwritings being added to the original info - (in my case) right
up to 1903...for others families it might be later.

All these records were copied/or/and kept in the "Village Admin", in smaller
villages, these would be copied out/or original sent to the "main" village,
which is the same as the "Village District" office, or the "volost'".

The Archives in Engels and Saratov, and all provincial archives, eventually
became repositories of the CHURCH BOOKS/registers ; the ADMIN / VOLOST' /
CIVIL RECORDS. including census/revisions/"Family Lists".

The Admin records section, I personally, find the more interesting because
these include commerce, trading, mills, shops, memoes between the various
government departments, overseers/mayors between the village mayor and the
village district (volost') mayor; land and boundary and grazing on
meadowland disputes; court cases, imprisonments, fines, whippings, theft,
divorce, bankrupcy, wills, inheritances, debts, schools, etc. and all other
such civic matters. And these go right back to the Khirgiz/Kalmuck attacks
and Pugachev rebellions.

Admin records for Saratov, eg. include the Diaries of the Chief Judge for
1774, who was head of the Chancellery of Guardianship for Foreigners, the
disputes, petitions and settlements (I have this book in Russian) between
Villagers and their Mayors/overseers + petitions of villages and/and
individual colonists.

So, when you ask the Archives in either Saratov or Engels to do your
genealogy (or ask Pleve), all researchers immediately go to the (a)census or
the (B) Family Lists, extract the detailed info = and ONLY THEN go over to
the (c) church books, for more details, such as date of baptism,
godparents, name of church, witnesses, name of priest, etc...

The main thing to remember is that the Archives hold both church and civic
records, and the researchers/archivist will know what is available and what
she can consult.

I hope this is slightly clearer.

best wishes

Vera Beljakova-Miller
=================







> Vera,
> Thanks for the clarification, so the lists sent to the Volost were
> just
> taken from the same civil or adminstrative records we have previously
> discussed. And what was recorded in the civil or adminstrative records
> varied tremendously over the years and from village to village. And in
the>
> case of Josefstal the records appear to be very detailed with complete
> lists of births, deaths and marriages. The copies of these records sent
to>
> the Volost could be another source of information if the originals
> have
> been lost.
>
> What we don't know for certain is if the Josephstal list was pulled
> from
> the civil or administrative records from a census type periodic survey or
> if they started to maintain a seperate list of life events (births,
deaths>
> and marriages) recording them as they occured. If they started to
maintain>
> these types of records in Russia, it came late.
>
> For clarification, the term vital records in the US refers to the
> individual recording of life events, birth, death and marriages. It may
go>
> by different names in different countries. A certificate of each event
can>
> be provided by the local government for each event. It has nothing to
> do
> with a census or periodic record keeping.
>
> Patrice
>
>
> At 01:25 PM 1/7/2005, wrote:
> >further:
> >
> >Ted and Patrice !
> >
> >I have samples of Family List records from 1874 and then 1885, with
> >additional notes entered up to 1903 (in my case).
> >
> >These are called civic or administration records.
> >Copies were also with the volost' or Village District Office.
> >
> >Vera
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This is quite an interesting find, particularly since you have
> > > seen them yourself. I have been told by Pleve that he has not seen
> > > any
vital> records
> > > for the Volga Germans and they were not kept. So perhaps he does
not> know
> > > because they were not kept by the archives or they were very rare
> > > and he has just not come across them.
> > >
> > > The question that Robert asked was about a 1847 marriage. For this
> > > time period, I am confident, from everything I have learned, that
> > > there
were>
> > not
> > > any vital records. Perhaps sometime after 1874 when Family Lists
> > > (or Administrative Village lists or Civil Lists) were instituted,
> > > the record keeping could have been changed or evolved over time.
> > >
> > > Any ideas on how we might get access to some of the Volost
> > > records? I wonder how to correlate the villages with the Volosts.
> > >
> > > Patrice
> > >
> > > At 02:23 PM 1/6/2005, you wrote:
> > > >Hi Patrice:
> > > >
> > > >While perusing records of Josefstal in the Volgograd archives in
2003,> I
> > > >came across complete lists of births, deaths and marriage for
> > Josefstal from
> > > >1907 to 1914. These were copies of reports sent to the
Volost> government,
> > > >in this caes the Ilavlin volost. At each name was also the
family> number,
> > > >that is the number assigned a family for any records. I found
> > > >the same numbers on some of the Josefstal draft records as well.
> > > >
> > > >I bring this up because if we can get access to some of the
> > > >Volost
> > records,
> > > >we might find that there are other sources for records other than
just> the
> > > >Church records.
> > > >
> > > >How long these records were kept, where they are, etc I do not
> > > >know.
> > > >
> > > >Edward (Ted) Gerk
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From:
> > > >[mailto:]
> > > >Sent: January 6, 2005 2:05 PM
> > > >To:
> > > >Subject: Re: [GV] Marriage Ccertificate
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Robert,
> > > >There were not vital statistics in the Volga during that time
period.> In
> > > >other words, there are not any birth, marriage or death
certifcates.> The
> > > >church did keep records, and if the church records for you
> > > >village
> > have been
> > > >found, then the entry for their marriage can be researched. Have
> > > >you contacted Randi Bolyard at who is the
> > > >village coordinator for Rosenheim?
He> should
> > > >know more about what records for his village have been found. Or
ask> the
> > > >german volga mail list what records are available for Rosenheim,
> > someone on
> > > >the list may be able to help you also.
> > > >
> > > >Patrice Miller
> > > >
> > > >-------------- Original message --------------
> > > >
> > > > > Good afternoon,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How I do to obtain the marriage certificate of
my> great-grandmothers?,
> > > > > they
> > > > > married
> > > > > in 1847 Rosenheim-Saratov-Russia.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Roberto Stadler
> > > > >
> > > > > São Paulo - Brazil
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------
> >This message was sent using Tiscali World Mail.
> >http://www.tiscali.co.za
>
>



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