Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2007-01 > 1168950138

From: "Steven Bird" <>
Subject: [DNA] Ray's E3b's in Britain - a response
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:22:18 -0500
In-Reply-To: <>

Ray wrote, on his website:

"Oppenheimer also argued that E3b primarily entered the British Isles before
the Roman period based mostly on Y-chromosome testing in a Welsh town, but
he said little about J2 and G2."

which is an accurate statement, with Oppenheimer referring to Abergele, N.
Wales. For a contrast, here is the opinion of one Abergelian (?) written
for Wikipedia:


"Recent genetic studies [2] on the y-chromosomes of men in Abergele have
revealed that there is a substantial percentage of North African DNA in
Abergele. Genetic marker e3b was found to average at 38.97% in male
y-chromosomes in Abergele. Genetic marker e3b is found at its highest
concentrations in North Africa at 75% but at much lower percentages in
Northern Europe at less than 5%. The reason for the high levels of e3b in
Abergele is most likely due to the heavy Roman presence in Abergele as most
of the Romans that came to Britain did not come from Italy rather from other
parts of the empire such as North Africa, the Middle East and eastern
europe. Above average levels of genetic marker e3b have been found in other
towns in Britain that were known to have had a heavy Roman presence."


The actual percentages from the Capelli study (concerning E3b) are: 64% E3b1
(alpha cluster), 19% E3b2, 5% E3b3. (My estimates, based on STR values for
each sample in the study). E3b2 is found exclusive in the southwestern
region and in the Channel Islands. E3b3 (of which there were just two
samples found) were in the Channel Islands and Norfolk. E3b1 was found in
all regions in which E3b appeared in Britain.

Ray also wrote:

"The New World men were generally inappropriate for this study, for example,
because Africans deported to the New World as slaves had considerable E3b
among them, and the surnames in the Americas cannot help distinguish who
might have African ancestry within the last 1000 years."

Now that is an interesting statement. It may interest you to know that 25%
of African-Americans are R1b. Does that disqualify your New World R1b's
from consideration? I can prove my English E3b line conventionally to
before 1600; some others that I know can prove it to before 1400 and a few
can prove it to before the Normans. Since the slave trade evolved in the
18th century in Britain and America, how is this statement relevant? Ray,
would you like to comment further?


>I have just posted the results of an exploratory study calculating the
>relative ages of the bulk of haplogroups R1b (Irish & English), G2, I1a,
>E3b and J2 in the British Isles. Actually the original intent was to see
>if G2 and E3b entered Britain mostly at the same time, but the other
>haplogroups were needed to make sense of the project.

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