Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-02 > 1140125368

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Cruithne/ Pict Nobility/ Lynch family
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:29:28 -0700
References: <>

There are some additional features of your 459 = 8,9 Atlantic R1b

Not only are many DYS463 values missing, but of those which are reported
they are slightly modal 25 instead of 24 (SMGF convention) The population
is modal 11 at DYS439 instead of 12.

The population is robustly modal at DYS464 = 13,13,15,17 which is far off
the beaten path.

And indeed it is highly concentrated in Ireland among the given pedigrees.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alister John Marsh" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:47 PM
Subject: [DNA] Cruithne/ Pict Nobility/ Lynch family

> Rob,
> When looking for examples of haplotypes tested for DYS463, but with no
> results obtained, I identified on Sorenson a strong cluster of mainly
> Irish
> R1bs with high numbers of missing DYS463, and the group was distinguished
> by
> the unusual value of DYS459a/b of 8/9. A few of these apparently related
> families are shown on the following link...
> S456=&DYS388=&DYS441=&DYS458=&DYS389I=&DYS442=&DYS459=8-9&DYS389B=&DYS444=&D
> YS460=&DYS390=24&DYS445=&DYS461=&DYS391=11&DYS446=&DYS462=&DYS392=13&DYS447=
> &DYS463=17&DYS393=&DYS448=&GGAAT1B07=&DYS394=&DYS449=&YCAII=&DYS426=&DYS452=
> &YGATAA10=13&DYS437=&DYS454=11&YGATAC4=23&DYS438=&DYS455=11&YGATAH4=&ysearch
> Type=genetic&matchProportion=1.0&surnameMatchType=approximate&showAllSurname
> s=on&showCountries=on&showMissingData=on&submit_button=Find+Genetic+Matches
> Surnames with the above minimal haplotype are Bryan, Casey, Courneen,
> Welch,
> Corbett, Casey, Ryan, LYNCH, Burke, Vignolo, O'Dea, Bryant, Steven,
> Johnson.
> (There are many more families, with close variants of this haplotype).
> I presume this Lynch included above is the one on Sorenson which you refer
> to. Do the other families above tie in with what you would expect to
> match
> the Lynch line which interests you?
> As you report, I found these families close to AMH, and also I found them
> very close to each other when expanded to the full 39 Sorenson Markers.
> The
> great thing is, that the DYS459a/b of 8/9 is quite distinctive in R1b, and
> makes it easy to isolate a related cluster.
> It would be interesting if this distinctive haplotype could be linked to
> Cruithne and/or Pict nobility. This group is also of interest, as a
> possible candidate for a SNP associated with the difficulty in getting
> test
> results for DYS463, ie the SNP S25 which EA are currently testing for.
> John.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlivingston1488 [mailto:]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:54 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Scots/Dalriata and NW Irish/Ui Neill - those clans
> Once again, thanks John for the very in-depth history you bring to the
> table.
>> A suggestion: The main group of Cruithin or Picts in Ireland who
> retained
>> territory and status throughout the centuries were the Dal nAraidhe of
>> northern Ireland; their chieftain was McGuinness and there are 99 DNA
> samples
>> listed in the Trinity College study; also 3 for Guinness. Another
>> surname
>> associated with Maguinness is MacArtain. I'm sure you already have the
> DNA markers
>> from the Trinity study. I don't see any McGuiness etc. in Ysearch.
> Thank you for the list of surnames associated with the Dal Araidhe.
> Two
> that you curiously seemed to have missed are O'Floinn/Flynn and
> O'Loingsich/Lynch. I was taking a look at these surnames recently because
> it was the Cruithne of Dal Araidhe who were the coarbs of St. Moluag, a
> member of the Dal Araidhe himself, who established the monastary of
> Lismore
> (in Scotland, not Ireland) in the 6th century. This tribe was responsible
> for establishing as many religious institutions in Scotland as St.
> Columba's
> tribe, the Ui Niall. In so doing, they amassed a considerable amount of
> power and property in Scotland by continuously sending sons from their
> noble
> families to fill the ecclisiastical offices of the abbeys.
> Since my family are the current so-called "coarbs" of St. Moluag (we
> are
> the keepers of his crosier in Lismore), it occured to me that my DNA
> (which
> falls into the Scots Cluster haplogroup) might be a match to that of the
> Flynns or Lynches. It turns out that we are NOT a match to the several
> Flynns and Lynches that I found in the Sorenson database. The Flynn is a
> perfect 28/28 match to WAMH, and the Lynches are a 25/28 match to the
> Flynns - a good indicator that I had picked the right Flynns and Lynches
> to
> look at.
> One of the last references in the Annals of Ulster that can be
> associated with Lismore in Scotland, was the death of a Lismore bishop
> named
> Maelmaire O'Loingsich (a Lynch), who died in 1159. One of the earliest
> abbots of Lismore recorded in a Scottish MS written in the mid 15th
> century,
> was an ancestor of the MacLean chiefs, named Cuduilig. No date for his
> life
> is given, but it can be interpolated to have been about the same time as
> the
> death of O'Loingsich in the late 12th century. So it was a pleasant
> surprise
> to find that a single McLain in the y-search database was a perfect 28/28
> match to my Sorenson Lynch.
> This didn't help me with my search for the identity of my own "Scots
> Cluster group", but it does give us a good lead as to the character of the
> Cruithne haplogroup (and by association, the Pict nobility, if they are
> one
> in the same) - plain old WAHM!
> Rob
> >
>> Two other major chieftains in Ireland are said to descend from the
>> same
>> Cruithin stock:
>> O Conchubhair of Ciarraidhe [O'Connor Kerry]
>> O Conchubhair of Corca Moruadh.[Corcumroe in Clare]
>> Also associated with this line were O'Lochlainn of Burren in Co.
>> Clare;
>> Muinntear Fhlaithbhearthaigh (O Flaherty of Thomond), Siol bhFearghail
>> (O
>> Farrell), Mag Raghnaill [MacRannall], and Mac Eochadha of Leinster
> (MacKeogh).
>> Maybe by checking some supposedly "Cruithin" DNA you could find some
>> difference in your Dal Riata or Scots modal line. Of course you'd have
>> to
> be very
>> careful which names you tested or which DNA you used; most of these
>> names
>> are of multiple origins and found all over Ireland. I think I'd stick
> with
>> Maguinnes as the easiest to identify.
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