GENBOX-L Archives

Archiver > GENBOX > 2004-03 > 1079067139


From: "Cheri Casper" <>
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:52:31 -0800
In-Reply-To: <FFEBLNNBNENFDKOPJEBPEEDKELAA.paulharris@nc.rr.com>


Paul - But each certificate from different time periods from different
places provide different bits of info. My grandparents certificate from
1919 is certainly much different from mine in 1976, as does the certificate
for my 4th g-grandparents who married in 1822 and my other 4 g-grandparents
who married in 1809. I also find that many "licenses" have subsumed
minister's returns (certificate) which adds yet a different dimension. Then
there are combined marriage records -- license application, bond, return.
Any popup to guide you through this morass is going to have to have a bunch
of fields if you want to cover all possibilities.

C

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul J. Harris [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:21 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard


Cheri,

I wasn't talking about having the Sources consistent. You're right, as I
pointed out, a well-designed Source Template to assure that. What I was
referring to was being CONSISTENT in WHAT gets sourced from each marriage
certificate.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheri Casper [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:29 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard


Ah, but that is why you create one perfect source of a given type and then
merely copy it when you add a second of the same type, modifying the text as
is appropriate. Isn't your recording consistent as of today? After I
created my first census, I have never created another from scratch but
merely copied an existing one--for all 178 of them (plus the creation of a
custom template, with default text, field labels & notes just in case I do
want to make one from scratch, but why would I want to?). Templates,
default text, field labels, Note fields, Projects, and the copy feature all
exist now. Clever use of any or all of these should lead to consistent
entry. As an example: one great use of a Project is to create one to hold
cut & paste text that you use frequently. Then you don't have to remember
from one session to another what you entered.

CheriC



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul J. Harris [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 12:35 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard


Cheri,

I think I can answer every one of your questions by reminding you that I
said USER-DEFINED wizard. The intent is not to tell you something you don't
know about your sources, but to make your recording CONSISTENT. You tell it
what YOU want to be reminded about for each source type. Then, when you
source 14 marriage certificates over a six month period, you will at least
be consistent.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheri Casper [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:12 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard


Paul - I think even for adding citations, that a wizard is going to be
impractical. Michel listed several items that could be found on a marriage
certificate, however, I've not seen any of those items on a US marriage
certificate, certainly not mine. Again, I think accounting for cultural
differences is going to make this impractical. Additionally, supposing that
one could devised and used. Will this yield a citation to every fact or if
all facts are cited, will this revert to an Event citation? How will the
program know that you indeed want a separate citation for every fact for an
event (which might be someone's preference) versus an event-level citation?
What if you forget and add it to every fact but really only want an Event
level one? I just see a lot of questions and ramifications.

I just see too many issues for this to be implemented in a practical manner.
IMHO there are other places that I would like to see Bill focus his
attention . . . namely making the search/query feature more user friendly
and adding some items to the search capabilities.

CheriC


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul J. Harris [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:53 AM
To:
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard


Cheri,

I have to agree with you here. I think a Wizard approach to 'creating' a
source is too structured for the requirements. That task should probably be
left to us non-wizards. <g>

Much of this discussion has actually centered more around a Wizardly
CITATION. What I think might be more useful to all levels of users would be
a wizardly approach to 'mining' a source. That is a term I have used to
describe what it is I do WITH a source. I 'mine' information from it, then
document that 'mining' process by creating citations. I use a checklist to
make sure I don't overlook anything in the source and that I create all of
the necessary citations. If the user could define their own 'Wizards' for
each source type that would prompt you for the citations you define for that
type, and track your progress on creating them, that could become an
invaluable tool.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheri Casper [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:01 AM
To:
Subject: RE: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard


Michel - How would a wizard accommodate the various types of sources that
are culturally unique? For example, UK censuses are -- it is my
understanding -- quite unique from US censuses. Likewise with a variety of
records. I think there are monumental implications of trying to create a
wizard to handle such a breadth of sources and allow for such differences.
CheriC

-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Vuijlsteke [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:18 AM
To:
Subject: [GENBOX] sourcing wizard


I don't have that much else to do :) so I thought I'd flesh out my wizard
idea a bit.

Here's how I would see a wizard that would guide a user to add source
information to an assertion.

Step 1. Explain the process, choose existing source or new source.
For existing sources: show last x used (10?) + "More...", and/or allow
typing in the combobox, continue with step 2.
For new sources: create the new source first (see below), then continue

Step 2. Format the citation
a. Show what the citation looks like (as in primary citation on formatting
tab). Ask if this is specific enough to find the necessary support for the
assertion. If not, add "where in source" information + refresh preview
b. Do you want to add an introduction to the citation, e.g. "Birth date can
be deduced from" or "Name variation as seen in signature on"? If so, add
"lead text" + refresh preview.
c. Do you want to add an annotation, e.g. "Additional information in the
margin" or "Very poor quality copy"? If so, add "annotation" + refresh
preview.

Step 3. Support level and credibility
a. How much does the source (name) support you assertion (detail)? Radio
buttons for the differrnt support levels + short explanation
b. How much credibility do you attach to the source? Radio buttons for the
differrent credibility levels + short explanation
c. Do you want to briefly explain why you believe the cited source is
relevant to the current assertion? This information is for your own personal
research purposes, and does not normally appear on output reports. You can
store here the reasons why you assigned a low/high support level or low/high
credibility, or the facts extracted from the source that you think make your
case, or personal reminders of work yet to be performed. If so, add
"rationale" info.

Step 4. Surety
Show the assertion and list all different citations for the assertion
(highlight the latest one).
"With all these citations, how sure are you of this assertion?" Radio
buttons for surety levels + explanation.

Step 5. The end
Showa final preview of the assertion + footnotes.
Offer the chance to manually fine tune: open citation and source window.

Now there are a few obvious problems, mostly because in "normal use" you
tend to sometimes go back and fort between the citation and the source, so
if you see there's something wrong in step 2 you'd have to be able to go to
the source definition to change the formatting-- and the wizard should
abviously be in a modal window, so you can't do anything else than the
wizard unless you close it.

I also don't really see how you could make a good wizard to add new sources,
because any (hard coded) wizard is going to have to depend on the
(non-modified!) existence of certain sources.

What I *can* see however, is source wizards for certain common types f
sources. In Belgium those would be birth/death/marriage civil records,
baptism/burial/marriage church records, photos, interviews, books, etc.

Michel


==== GENBOX Mailing List ====
To join this list, send an email to with the
word "subscribe" as the subject line. Then email your messages to
and they will appear on this list.

==============================
Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237



==== GENBOX Mailing List ====
To join this list, send an email to with the
word "subscribe" as the subject line. Then email your messages to
and they will appear on this list.

==============================
Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237



==== GENBOX Mailing List ====
To join this list, send an email to with the
word "subscribe" as the subject line. Then email your messages to
and they will appear on this list.

==============================
Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237


==== GENBOX Mailing List ====
To join this list, send an email to with the
word "subscribe" as the subject line. Then email your messages to
and they will appear on this list.

==============================
Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237



==== GENBOX Mailing List ====
To join this list, send an email to with the
word "subscribe" as the subject line. Then email your messages to
and they will appear on this list.

==============================
Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237



==== GENBOX Mailing List ====
To join this list, send an email to with the
word "subscribe" as the subject line. Then email your messages to
and they will appear on this list.

==============================
Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237



==== GENBOX Mailing List ====
To join this list, send an email to with the
word "subscribe" as the subject line. Then email your messages to
and they will appear on this list.

==============================
Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237


This thread: