Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-01 > 1043806396

Subject: Re: Amie de Gaveston Rebuttal - Part 4: A Damsel's Life
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:13:16 EST

In a message dated 1/28/2003 6:34:32 PM Mountain Standard Time,

> The monument was never erected and never moved to Arnaud's grave. It
> lingered for many, many years in an alcove an unfinished state.

Then it might well be that it had been intended for Piers and his father.
Arnaud de Gabaston was certainly buried at Winchester. Langley was certainly
not Edward II's first choice as a burial place for Piers. Winchester
Cathedral, where Arnaud was buried, was a much better choice, and was a
burial site for English royalty.

If one hypothesized that Piers was son of an elder Piers, and that the elder
Piers was buried in Winchester, then how do we account for the arms of a
knight who fought on crusade bearing the Gabaston arms aside from Piers'
arms? And if this hypothetical Piers is a logical candidate, how not more so
Arnaud, who was a knight and in Edward I's service? If the tomb was intended
for BOTH Piers, and the father of Piers, it would explain why Piers occurred
twice in what could be made out. One wonders if modern methods could detect
what is now lost. Does this still survive, or has it been discarded?

Piers' father would have his own coat-of-arms, and at his death it should
have passed to his eldest son, who was in England in the retinue of the King
at the same time Piers came to prominence. This would have required Piers to
adopt either a variation, or different arms.

As I pointed out, Ralph de Monthemer, Margaret de Clare's step-father, was a
new man and bore one eagle displayed. Piers bore sometimes three, and at
other times six.

It is difficult to determine the medieval coat of Marsan and Lescun, as their
lines merged into other families and the arms were not quartered by later
descendants (as far as I have seen). Also, BĂ©arn was not an area of great
interest to later historians and genealogists, aside from lines that did
survive or were highly placed, such as Comminges or Foix.


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