Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-01 > 0980975505

From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
Subject: Re: Amie de Gaveston
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:11:45 -0000
References: <>, <>


They just don't want to give up the postulated descent from Edward I,
even a bastard descent, and they will fight tooth and nail ---- in the
face of the facts ---- to sustain it.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,

"You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
_Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290

"On rsiste l'invasion des armes; on ne rsiste pas l'invasion des

Victor Hugo

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Vires et Honor

"Reedpcgen" <> wrote in message
| KHF wrote:
| >but born out
| >of wedlock to Margaret after Piers died.
| That would not sill make her a Gaveston after his death, and the fine
| certainly NOT have specified that she was daughter of PIERS de
Gaveston. You
| need to understand medieval practice concerniong identification and
| illegitimacy at that period.
| [snip]
| >I really think that the fact Amy being in court with Isabella is a
very big
| >hump. Isabella simply would not have permitted a daughter of the
hated Piers
| >to serve in her court.
| Again, there is no reason why, if Amie's mother had been a member of
| household, that a poor girl imposed upon would not have had her child
| for. The Queen would watch out for her damsels (if for nothing else,
to avoid
| scandalous stories). Piers obviously did not provide for Amie. As I
| in my article, it would make sense if Amie's mother had been a member
of the
| Royal household, and would explain how Piers would have had access to
| [snip]
| >Her being the child
| >born in 1312 would make her 22 at marriage and that is really far too
old for
| >a first marriage for that class.
| huh? She married a widowed man who was also a retainer in the King's
| (both parties needed to be married off). She might have been married
off to a
| better suitor if she were younger and provided for. I think the fact
that she
| married a King's yeoman who already had a young son who needed a
mother, that
| she did not marry better, and that she had to be provided for to make
her a
| suitable match seems to actually indicate that she might be older.
| And who said she was the child born in 1312? That was Joan. Piers
and Edward
| rushed to Yorkshire to join Margaret at the birth, where there was
| celebration (why would Edward lavish a celebration on this child if it
| Margaret's bastard and not his beloved Piers' child?!?). Understand
that it
| was forbidden at this time for Piers to be there, which was his
| undoing. If this child were not his first legitimate heir, why should
he throw
| folly to the wind and rush to be there at the birth of a child who was
NOT his
| own, but actually represented both the unfaithfulness of his wife, and
| inability to sire?
| [snip]
| >Margaret got the estates of Occam Rutland from Edward II, probably
as a
| >dower. Later, Amy owned some houses on this same estate! >Where did
she get
| >them?
| What are you talking about? Did you read my article? There were no
| and the three shilings rent may have been inheritance through the
| Tatershall/Driby line.
| As Margaret's holdings (life interest) there were worth 55,000
shillings, why
| would a 3 shillings rent there be enidence that Margaret had provided
for her?
| Have you tried to live off of 3 shillings per year?
| >Amy would have been known as Gaveston if she was born out-of-wedlock
| >Piers death and before Margaret remarried.
| No. Why would you think this?
| >Isabella and Margaret could easily have forged a common link through
| >their mutual hatred of their husbands during the course of their
| >marriages.
| Holy Blood, Holy Grail was a book much discussed on this forum.
Arguments such
| as, "the fact that there is no evidence to show that Margaret provided
for Amie
| proves she was in a deep conspiracy with the queen to provide for her
| but not implicate her" is just such faulty reasoning.
| We must be careful of flights of fancy and analyze what the facts tell
us. We
| STILL have to get over the hurdle of the fine. Amie was not the focus
of this
| fine--others were also involved. It was a relatively obscure record,
but one
| that had to be proved and entered before the King's justices. I gave
| references in my article to show that at this period the judges were
not going
| to have their rolls defaced be obviously faulty instruments. This
cannot be
| lightly dismissed.
| Parsimony. WHY should not Amie be the illegitimate daughter of Piers?
| MARGARET DE CLARE had obscure origins, would people be fighting so
hard to make
| something else out? Swallowing the camel, yet straining at gnats.
| Paul

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