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Archiver > FERMANAGH-GOLD > 2009-12 > 1262129100


From: "Cliff. Johnston" <>
Subject: Re: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:25:00 -0600
References: <781966.69387.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


It's the old politcal addage - might makes right.

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: "karen mcvitty" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins


Thank you, Cliff...very interesting and in support of your findings around
1760 here a group of immigrants had crossed over the mountain into Path
Valley and taken up homesteading on Indian land...the chief was upset over
this as there was a treaty that stated as much...the chief and his top men
went to Carlisle to protest and the sheriff and a posse were sent to rid the
area of the settlers...they gave the settlers orders to vacate immediately
and as they did their cabins were burned to the ground so they wouldn't
return! In 2yrs. time the Treaty was abandon and a new one written further
west so the area was again settled by the white man and the Indians made to
move on. The area was and still is known as Burnt Cabins,Pa.Karen

--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Cliff. Johnston <> wrote:

From: Cliff. Johnston <>
Subject: Re: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins
To:
Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 11:44 AM

Karen,

One interesting bit of history that I came across while doing some research
in the early 1990's was a paper done by a graduate student. Unfortunately
I've lost his name, etc.. He went through the U.S.Army archives and had the
shock of his life. Most of what we have been brought up to believe is not
so...for instance...

In the beginning of American expansion westward there was not wholesale
slaughter of settlers by the Indians. What happened was that land
speculators wanted the U.S. Army to move with them for protection as they
strong-armed their way into Indian territory, often land that belonged
rightfully to the Indians by treaty. Army officers refused their requests
until political pressure was brought to bear upon them.

Indian women had more protection in their native societies than European
women did in our society. An Indian woman could divorce her husband simply
by moving his goods out of their habitation. The ex-husband then faced
social ridicule by his fellow male tribemen. A divorced Indian male was
looked upon as being somewhat less of a man.

If an Indian male raped an Indian woman the male was killed by his tribesmen
ASAP. They regarded rape as a very lowly act that no real man would commit.
As such a rapist was not a man and had forfeited his right to live. This
cultural practice was a common thread among all of the native populations in
North America, Central America and South America.

When native Americans were hot in summer they took their clothes off. This
was also a common practice in Europe until ca. 1500s when the great plague
swept throught Europe and the Vatican blamed it all on evil living people
who went nude, etc.. By the time the Europeans got to North America being
fulling clothed was a de facto custom. When they saw bare breasted native
women in the heat of summer they mistakenly took it as a sign of sexual
beckoning. When their advances were refused, the European men often raped
the native women. This was one of the major cultural clashes that Europeans
never seem to have understood.

European settlers and their descendants have long claimed to have brought
the benefits of Christianity to the "savages"; however, writings of those
times indicate that Indians did not convert to Christianity easily. Their
native religion had a much more logical flow to it than did Christianity,
and their beliefs were stronger than that of most Christians according to
many of the priests and ministers of the day. Most of the early converts to
Christianity were the old, the very poor and the starving who were left to
die. For Christianity it was a start, although a very poor start.

So, the very early European settlers did their best to bring civilization to
the native Americans. They demolished cities that had 10s of thousands of
Indian inhabitants. They disrupted Indian traders who did a thriving
business from Ohio to Central America. They "improved" the native culture
by changing the rape laws to allow them to get away with rape. Finally they
wiped out the native Indian's main food source so as to starve them out.
The bison almost went extinct.

This is pretty typical of survival of the fittest. Too bad though that we
haven't learned something from the native cultures. This morning I heard
about more ground water in NJ being contaminated. Men are dying of cancers
at an accelerated rate. I doubt that if we had adopted the native Indian
custom of respecting the Mother Earth that this would have been allowed to
have happened. Hmmm, seems to me that Christianity has a similar
concept...yes...as ye sow, so shall ye reap.

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: "karen mcvitty" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins


My husband's 5th grt.grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War with his
oldest son,William...his descendants fought in every war except the Spanish
American! One of his 5th grt.grandfather's daughters was captured by the
indians in the area of Path Valley,franklin Co,Pa. No one knows if she was
ever returned...some captives were returned while others were married off
and became part of an indian tribe!! How interesting our past!! Karen

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, Cliff. Johnston <> wrote:

From: Cliff. Johnston <>
Subject: Re: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins
To:
Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 9:27 PM

The Scots pushed westward in North America in part to get away from the
discrimination by the English along the East coast and in part for the free
land. They paid a tremendous price. In the early going there were 6 Scots
killed by the Indians for every Indian killed.

In one of the very first skirmishes of the American Revolution the patriot
force was made up of mostly Scots and Scots/Irish. They slaughtered the
English forces so badly that the powers in charge were afraid that the
English would hear about it and retaliate with even more troops to stop the
rebellion. Some say that the War Between the States was a continuation in
effect of the war between England and Scotland with the South having a
population with Scottish ancestry estimated by some at 75%, while in the
North it was estimated at 75% English descent. Ironically many of the
Northern generals were of Scots descent.

The more times change the more they remain the same.

Prejudices ran deep.

Cliff. Johnston
"May the best you've ever seen,
Be the worst you'll ever see;"
from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay
----- Original Message -----
From: "karen mcvitty" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins


The Germans and Quakers weren't fond of us either and we pushed further into
Indian territory because of it!! Our Scots-Irish ancestors were looking for
a little peace and quiet so they pushed into unsettled territory and when
that got too crowded we continued to push west esp. into the mountains and
valleys of the Alleghenies!!

--- On Mon, 12/28/09, donkelly <> wrote:

From: donkelly <>
Subject: Re: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins
To:
Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 3:28 PM

Yes Sue, it is your right to be proud.

But where Scots and Irish settled in early America was dictated somewhat by
the English.

Remember that the English looked down with disdain on both people, but hated
the Scots most of all.

And England wanted security buffers between the Indians of the west, whom
were not too far west in those days, and their Torys whom were plantation
owners and farmers....as well as traders and merchants.

So to some degree they settled English on the coast, Irish at the base of
the nearest mountains, and the Scots on the western side of the mountain
range.

The English knew too well that the Irish and Scots would viciously fight
indians at every opportunity, leaving the British settled lands relatively
secure.

more about this, but don't wind me up any tighter.<G>

donkelly
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 19:53:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: FER-GOLD Reiver cousins

Hi All
I noticed this post....you got my attention lol

First because I read "Steel Bonnets" and loved it. It helped me to
understand WHY my border riever Armstrongs were the way they were. YES...it
is
only one point of view but it still gave me an insight to realize...back
then..the "LARGE" picture was SURVIVAL....whether right or wrong...people
did
what they did many times because of tradition (or it was all they knew how
to
do for years) and Survival!

Second...amazingly awhile back my son did a report on "Scot-Irish" for his
American History class. I won't go into details now...but one thing I
learned from his report (taken from a few sources) was....that many
Scot-Irish
came to the US from the early to late 1700s.....they tended to settle in
isolated areas (mountains etc). When war hit....they were the FIRST to
defend,
the first to declare themselves Americans and not just residents of the
states they lived in, and the first to fight intensely. They were some of
the
first to risk their lives and travel into the new territories of America.
I also learned that though much of America was basically influenced by
"British" and many History books concentrated on their influence on
America...it was the Scot-Irish who had an even bigger effect on who we
became and who
we are today. For instance......in 1738 they were the ones who pushed
religious freedom in Virginia. They also helped bring a "commitment to
general
education" to America. And there was more...but I'll cut this short for
now.

I thought you all might find this interesting. I did.

Another fact was....when they first came here they were persecuted or
looked "down on" by a majority British population but that changed after ALL
they did and their patriotism for their new country. They gained extreme
respect. And many became great Generals and leaders of this country.
So...after
reading Steel Bonnets I may have found understanding "with" pride.... BUT
I was never more proud then when I read and talked with my son about his
report.

Again...only "one" mans view! lol


Sue in NY
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