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Archiver > ESSEX-UK > 2008-06 > 1214329864

From: "jackycooper.clav78" <>
Subject: Re: [Ess] FW: Publishing the Essepubs site
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:51:04 +0100
References: <>

You're right of course, copyright is a minefield. I bought a good book on it
but haven't yet got my head round it all, others may fare better:
Copyright for Archivists and users of archives
by Tim Padfield
Facet Publishing 2nd edition 2004
ISBN 1-85604-512-9

Jacqueline Cooper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Layzell" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: [Ess] FW: Publishing the Essepubs site

> Kevan
> Firstly can I say what a great and useful site you run - My sites are much
> smaller than yours but I know just how many hours they take to maintain.
> Secondly- I had hoped that on this list with so many well informed people
> there would have been a definitive reply by now but as there hasn't I
> thought that I would add my 'two penneth worth' and hopefully stimulate
> some
> more advice..
> Copyright with it's ally Data protection are not good friends of
> genealogy!
> Although I an annoyed by the restrictions I try to comply with the law so
> I
> went through a similar period of doubt in 2007 and as a result tried to
> research the law on copyright / data protection as it affected my
> websites.
> The below advice is my understanding so please treat it with caution and
> check it out yourself.
> The first and main problem is that virtually all of the advice on these
> issues from 'respected sites' relates to protecting copyright for
> copyright
> holders and ensuring compliance with data protection. Its all YOU MUST
> and
> PENALTIES FOR BREACH with virtually no YOU CAN.
> There is little advice on line in how to maximise the use of material
> while
> staying within the law and much of what there is comes from sources that
> are
> on the whole less reliable and not sites on which I would place trust if
> confronted by the Data Controller and his henchmen.
> This is short-sighted on the part of Government as most people want to
> comply with the law so good guidance for people like us would probably
> mean
> less breaches.
> Copyright covers all form of media so there is no difference between you
> publishing a picture/ info on your website or on a CD - In law it is the
> same and a breach would be treated similarly.
> There are special concessions in the copyright and data protection acts
> that
> apply to genealogists but only for information held personally for
> personal
> and non commercial research i.e. I have data on people still alive but I
> cannot publish it on my website without their specific approval and
> registration with the data registrar. It's Ok for me to hold it as long as
> the data I hold is reasonable and I have if for legit purpose. As most of
> my
> data comes from previously published or public sources that is OK if I
> obtained if from private sources then my holding or use would be more
> questionable.
> Photos of private premises ( in your case pubs) can be taken without
> approval of the owner as long as they are taken from public places i.e. a
> road and do not identify any person.
> Copyright lasts for so long on most material that books etc need to date
> back to pre 1900 to be of any use and photos have to go back to 1937.
> That means that for you to use any photos taken after 1937 must either
> have
> been taken by yourself or the person taking them must have given approval.
> Approval is normally in writing but can be verbal although verbal approval
> can be forgotten in later years.
> I have occasionally used Wiki Commons for photos and materials as most
> there
> are free of copyright but you still need to be careful. Although the
> person
> who supplied the photo to Wiki as free of copyright it still doesn't mean
> that it actually is free of copyright!
> Much of the material you mention, as having less interesting content than
> your site, especially that on E bay , simply pirates material ( your site
> will certainly have been pirated and I have found word for word copies of
> mine on sites all over the net) and thus breaches copyright although some
> use out of copyright books or material produced without copyright
> restrictions like the much maligned Wikipedia and stay within the law. On
> the subject of Wikipedia - this carried quite well balanced entry on
> copyright in the UK with links to official and unofficial sites on
> copyright
> and data protection. This article seems fairly accurate and has not been
> subject to the hacking that plagues wiki as a credible site.
> Most museums display copyright info that has words to the effect - we have
> tried to make sure that none of our material breaches copyright but if you
> think it does please contact us - see the copyright/ data protection pages
> on my websites( ) as I
> have tried to copy the best wording from several history based or legal
> advice websites( that may be a breach of copyright itself). This warning
> does not allow you to escape copyright/data but it does give an indication
> of your intent and provides an way for someone to challenge directly
> rather
> than the more painful way of challenge via the data controller. An example
> from Liverpool museums is at
> Copyright etc seems to get worse if you sell things as anyone complaining
> at
> a breach of copyright on my free sites is likely to write a threatening
> letter and when I take the offending picture down the matter would be
> closed
> but if you are making money they may well ask for financial compensation.
> You could ask the army of friends of your website to take up to date
> pics -
> I have photos of all Pubs and Churches in my area and so you are certainly
> welcome to help yourself to any Of Burnham on Crouch and the surrounding
> area of Eastern Essex from my sites.
> The problem you have as far as the CD - is it worth all that extra work to
> earn a few pounds.
> A search on UK Copyright brings up thousands of hits on the rootsweb
> mailing
> lists although they seem spread over many lists the other possibility is a
> long night looking at these threads to see if the definitive answer is out
> there but just not read yet.
> I am afraid that this may add to your confusion but at least you know that
> you are not the only one out there who is confused.
> Peter
> OPC Burnham on Crouch and the Dengie 100 Villages
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:]On Behalf Of Kevan
> Sent: 23 May 2008 01:37
> To:
> Subject: [Ess] Publishing the Essepubs site
> All,
> This is really a feedback question, and I will be posting the same to
> London Rootsweb.
> As the Essex Pubs site is all freely available on the internet, and
> updated from the original by Ian Hunter (who owns the site - bless him), a
> question. The site now also includes Suffolk, Kent, London, Herts &
> Sussex.
> I am forever seeing books on historical Pubs, always interesting, but
> with far less content than can be seen by viewing this site, i.e.
> .
> I decided tonight that perhaps I could publish the site, as a CD / DVD,
> freely available to all libraries & record offices, but at a cost to the
> general public, say £25, with a percentage going to World Vision (whom I
> support already).
> Firstly, is there a copyright law which states that I cannot do this, as
> much of the material has been supplied by people known / unknown, e.g. by
> charging for a copy of something that is freely available on the internet,
> am I breaking this copyright?
> Secondly, I always feel that the search engines miss much of the
> excellent
> material on the site, partly because I tend to move sites more often than
> I
> should, and much of the image content has to be manually searched and
> indexed ( I believe). There is nothing on the site that is blocked to
> general access, therefore selling a CD / DVD just makes it easier for
> people to access the same.
> Lastly, to put this into book /published format; with about 17,000 pages
> and in excess of 4,000 images is one BIG book. An CD would be better
> served
> for this purpose, but again, this also gives people access to the source
> pictures, although again I repeat, this is all freely available on the
> internet.
> I would welcome any feedback on this idea.
> Thanks
> Kevan
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