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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2012-05 > 1336397135


From: Susan Hedeen <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] [RL21Project] Re: New DF23 result
Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 09:27:40 -0400
References: <96773717-44FC-4C55-81F5-14AE89FA33AA@comcast.net><4FA7BA98.7030209@earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <4FA7BA98.7030209@earthlink.net>


List, since DF23 was discovered and the primers developed for testing
the SNP directly -- this testing becoming available late 2011, we all
have assumed that DF23 is ancestral to M222. I along with several
others have been watching this and looking at it.

Find below copy of communications, one being from Anatole Klyosov who
also has been watching it. It seems he may be of the opinion that DF23
is actually parallel to M222, both being direct descendants of L21. DF
23 is indeed much older than M222 and is nearly as old as L21 itself.
For those of you have been following the progress among the L21 Plus
project, there have been messages regarding its age posted.

I do not know how many confirmed M222+ bearers have separately tested
for DF23. I was going to have the M222 results I manage test separately
for it early on, but declined on advise that it was ancestral to M222.
Retrospectively, however, I'm not certain that it has been established
and if any of you know otherwise, this might be a good time to discuss
it. If it has not been fully established that it is ancestral, in other
words assumed that it is ancestral, I believe it is time for some $29.00
alacarte testing of DF23 among the confirmed M222 to see. Susan

On 5/7/2012 8:05 AM, Susan Hedeen wrote:
>
> Aiden, I took the liberty to forward your message onto Anatole A.
> Klyosov. Please see below his response. Susan
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, those data make sense, and you can post my comments below, if you
> wish.
>
>
> Despite using an archaic approach with "GD" and "modal haplotype"
> which are not in my vocabulary, the data presented make sense, since,
> apparently, the DF23 haplotypes form a "smooth", uniform branch on a
> haplotype tree. Then 12 mutations on average from the base haplotype
> give 12/0.12 = 100-->110 generations (25 years each, calibrated)' or
> 2750 years from a common ancestor of DF23 (I omit here calculations of
> the margin of error, which can easily be computed).
>
> Then, 5 mutations between the base haplotypes for DF23 and L21 give
> 5/0.12 = 42-->44 generations, or 1100 years between their common
> ancestors. Since for L21 he lived 3750 ybp, a common ancestor of both
> DF23 and L21 lived (3750+2750+1100) = 3800 ybp, and he was the common
> ancestor of L21. In other words, DF23 is the direct descendant of L21.
>
> Similarly, 13 mutations between the base haplotypes DF23 and M222
> result in 13/0.12 = 108--> 120 generations, or 3000 years between
> them. Since a common ancestor of M222 lived 1450 ybp (for the majority
> of M222), we have (3000+2775+1450)/2 = 3600 ybp, which is again L21
> common ancestor himself. In other words, M222 and DF23 are parallel
> lineages descended both from L21.
>
> Regards,
>
> Anatole Klyosov
>
> P.S. A correction for back mutations is calculated as follows, with an
> example of DF23 above. 12 mutations per the 67 markers 12 give 12/67
> = 0.179 mutations per marker. ln x = 0.179 gives x = 1.1962. Add 1.0
> and divide by 2, you get 1.098. This is a correction for back
> mutations, that is 100x1.098 = 110 generations, or 100-->110
> generations. Explanations of the calculations are in Advances in
> Anthropology, 2011, v.1, No.2.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 6, 2012, at 11:34 PM, Susan Hedeen
> <
> <mailto:>> wrote:
>
>> Thought this might interest you.... Susan
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] I grouped the DF23+ listed on the L21 ftdna results spreadsheet.
>>
>> [2] The modal is below and I will install in y-search as "ModalDF23+".
>>
>> [3] The relative GD from the DF23 modal of the recorded 12 x DF23+
>> individuals is GD8-GD17 average GD12.
>>
>> [4] The DF23+ modal is GD5 from L21+ and GD13 from M222+.
>>
>> [5] A recent post placed DF23+ TMRCA at approx 2400YBP or 400BC and
>> L21+ at 3600YBP or 1600BC - so the in between SNPs DF49+ (is
>> somewhere between 1600BC - 1000BC) and DF13+ somewhat closer to
>> 1600BC than whatever DF49+ is).
>>
>> [6] That all seems to make sense - any comments?
>>
>> ModalDF23+ 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
>> 31 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10
>> 8 10 10 12 21 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 24 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Aidan
>>
>> --- In
>> <mailto:>, Robert Hughes
>> <hughesrobert37@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Does anyone know who the newest DF23 result is for?
>> > Regards, Robert H., the other Robert
>> >
>>
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