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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2012-04 > 1334638010


From: tuulen <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Surname Sample
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2012 00:46:50 -0400
References: <EE300425-EAD2-4695-B0CB-7020CFB42328@mac.com><632202898.1899652.1334625023099.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <632202898.1899652.1334625023099.JavaMail.root@sz0119a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


Chris,

Surnames have been known to change for the seemingly slightest of reasons,
and for a broad range of the slightest of reasons! For instance, my name
is Morrison, but apparently I am an Irish Morrison, not Scottish. I
suspect, but can not prove, that my Morrison name originated as the
O'Muirgheasain name. However, some 400 or so years ago, at a time when the
Anglicization of Gaelic names was an ordinary event, the O'Muirgheasain
name branched into two Anglicized names, Bryson (or Brice) and Morrison. I
can see how the Morrison name became adopted, but Bryson??? It turns out
that Bryson has something to do with a 5th century Saint Bricius. Yet of
my own family knowledge, I have no idea as to who Saint Bricius could have
been. But that is how the story goes, just to show how surnames can take a
most unexpected turn.

And the list of reasons as to why surnames have at times changed goes on
and on, and on!

Anyway, I suggest that your 64/67 match should not be ignored.

Doug


On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:10 PM, <> wrote:

>
>
> Malcolm,
>
>
>
> Our Lane's very close match with the McAleer and McClure samples have me
> wondering if there was a name change in the family prior to 1690-95. In
> looking at the samples of our Lane's in group 3 of the Lane DNA project at
> FTDNA, we are all pretty distinct with a 14-30 at 389i-ii, and
> 16-16-16-17 at the 464 set.
>
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/lane/default.aspx?section=yresults
>
>
>
> The McAleer and McClure samples also match us extremely close and they
> too are also 14-30 and 16-16-16-17. T he makers that seem to have
> movement between our lines are the CDY markers. In the M-222 project you
> can see our Lane results on page 2 ne xt to the McClure sample . The
> McAleer sample has chosen to keep their results private but also match me
> 64/67 and have the 14-30 389i-ii and 16-16-16-17 CDY's..I do know the
> McAleer matches the McClure sample almost exactly.
>
>
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?vgroup=R1b1c7&section=yresults
>
>
>
> Based on these extremely close matches, would it be fair to say that
> "possibly" sometime during the 1600's my surname could have been changed
> from McAleer/McClure to La ne ? Maybe a name change after one of the 17 th
> century wars to mas k an identity ? I do know that m y La ne ancestors
> came from Ulster to Virginia about 1740-41 during the first famine when
> Ireland was locked in a deep freeze.
>
>
>
> Any thoughts on this would be welcome!
>
>
>
> Chris Lane
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: "Malcolm McClure" <>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 5:42:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Surname Sample
>
> Chris
>
> Your mention of the McAleers is interesting as my McClure lineage goes
> back in Donegal to at least mid 17th Century and extends into west
> Tyrone, where McAleers are considered indigenous. Thanks for the pointer;
> I had not come across the yDNA link but will watch out for it. In my own
> unpublished analysis I had McAleer as a possible clan synonym but perhaps I
> should upgrade it. Alternative spellings I have seen include:
>
> 1. Acceptable and probable synonyms
> McClure; M‘Clure; McClure; M’Clure; MacClure; Maclure; McLure; M‘Lure;
> McLuer; McLur; Makclure; Makcluir; Maklure; Macklur; Maklourie; McCluer;
> McCluir; McLuir; McLur; McClour; McCloure; McCloor; McCleur; McClewr;
> McClewer; McClewre; McKlewre; McKlewer; McClowre; McLewre McClurie;
> McClurr; Macillure; Maciloure McCuluer; McClue; Clure
>
> 2. Possible and dubious synonyms (Misreading, mishearing, misspelling and
> Anglicization)
>
> McClair; Maclair(e); Macklair; McClare; McCleir; Maclier; McLoir;
> McClear(e); M’Leare; Makcleare; McCleere; McClere; McCleary; McCleogh;
> McCrewir; McChure; McChuar; McCowr; McClorey; McClorry; McClairne;
> Maleur; Clore; Clough.
>
>
> 3. Possible clan synonyms
>
>
> McLeod; Mac Leod; (McCloud); O Cléirigh; O’Clery; McClery; McCleery;
> McAleer; McIleer
>
> 4. Generally unacceptable supposed synonyms
>
>
> McLurg; McClurg; McLune; McClune; McCune; McCluney; McLaren; McLauren;
> McCalore; McCoule; McCool; McElwee;
>
>
>
> Malcolm
>
>
>
>
> On 16 Apr 2012, at 02:29, wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I did find that some of the McClures in Northern Ireland were actually
> Irish McAleer's from County Tyrone..2 of my closest DNA matches are with a
> McClure from Northern Ireland, and a McAleer from County Tyrone. By looking
> at the DNA results, they both appear to be closely related ..My surname is
> Lane, and my line was also from Ireland..so I'm not really sure how I also
> match them so closely at 64/67.
> >
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: "Malcolm McClure" <>
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:58:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Surname Sample
> >
> > Alan
> >
> > I have a lot of information about the Ayrshire (Carrick) McClures, where
> in late medieval times they were close associates of the Cassilis Kennedy
> family.
> > Actually the first reference to the McClures that I've seen is from 1486
> in Kirkudbright.
> > I am rather inclined to think the earlier name was Irish, —possibly
> from O'Cleirigh but I lack supporting information for that speculation.
> >
> > Malcolm.
> >
> >
> > On 15 Apr 2012, at 23:24, wrote:
> >
> >> Malcolm, have you done much research in Ayrshire, where the McClure
> surname
> >> first appears?
> >>
> >>
> >> Alan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 12/04/2012 21:46:22 GMT Standard Time,
> >> writes:
> >>
> >> McCune's 1966 list of Scotch-irish Ancestors is interesting and in
> >> reasonable accord with my own interpretation of their origins. I would
> reserve
> >> judgement on whether all those surnames were indigenous the Galloway
> area for
> >> centuries before the 1700s. Some of the names have a distinctly Irish
> >> identity and several others could also be construed as originating in
> North
> >> Ireland. There has been travel between Ireland an Galloway for many
> millennia,
> >> although of course the use of surnames goes back only a thousand years
> or
> >> less.
> >>
> >> I have selected some candidate names with seeming Irish affinities from
> >> McCune's list for discussion:
> >> Possible Irish Migrants to Galloway?
> >>
> >> Adair
> >>
> >> Baird, Beattie
> >>
> >> Campbell, Cannon, Carrick, Clark, Cormack, Cunningham
> >>
> >> Dun, Dunbar, Duncan
> >>
> >> Gilchrist, Gillespie, Gillmour,
> >>
> >> Kennedy, Kilpatrick, Kyle
> >>
> >> McAdam, McBride, McCall
> >>
> >> McClanachan, McClelland, McClure
> >>
> >> McConnel, McCormick, McCrae, McCulloch
> >>
> >> McGhie, McGill, McGowen
> >>
> >> McKelvie, McKenna
> >>
> >> McNab, McTaggart
> >>
> >> Martin, Milligan, Mulroy
> >>
> >> Tait, Tagart
> >>
> >> Susan has said
> >>
> >> " I'm not certain for myself in regard to M222 that surname is one of
> >> the criteria that I would use to look at the clade. I would rather see
> >> a nearly blind study where the surnames were kept separate from the
> >> study until that data had been analyzed and the information ready to
> >> assemble with the names then matched up to the numbers assigned to each
> >> result. That would be a more honest approach, and likely would be more
> >> revealing than if surnames were a consideration from the beginning. But
> >> that is simply an opinion."
> >>
> >> I think there could be merit in a wider debate about the structure of
> a 37
> >> marker study of say, 1000 males.
> >> We are seeking convergence of M222 clades at some undefinable point in
> the
> >> distant past.
> >> If we select the blind 1000 sample from names that have a stable
> history
> >> in the "source " area it seems we would be more likely to distinguish
> >> branches than twigs.
> >> It might well be that the branches pointed to early migration of
> distinct
> >> populations to the common area, with the common M222 ancestor much
> father
> >> back in time. However I think we need to restrict the sampling method
> to
> >> that possibility before attempting to extract time estimates from a
> mish-mash
> >> of anonymous randomised data, albeit currently indigenous to Galloway.
> >>
> >> If we can develop a clearcut rationale to justify our objectives, it
> will
> >> be much easier to gather support for the necessary expenditure.
> >>
> >> Malcolm.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >>
> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> >> -------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> >
> >
> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > -------------------------------
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> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
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> > -------------------------------
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>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
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>
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